Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

[bunters]

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

As someone else said - it's the safe spaces. Some women have suffered massive trauma and don't want to be anywhere near a man that identifies as a woman.

"MoonBaby1
I think you’re coming from a genuine place and I share your concerns about men. However, transwomen are men and commit male type crimes at a similar rate to men. Because they are men.
This."

I get the above post totally.

If you are really interested then have a read of the JKR posts and her way of explaining on behalf of very vulnerable, traumatised women that cannot speak up.

...and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population

Before I will accept that as truth, and having suffered from depression and suicide ideation myself, I would like to study the data.

Do you have a reference for that assertion in your OP that I can study, please?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

We're organising a mass demonstration - all of us - all over the country on a designated day at a particular time.

The demonstration will be at all the organisations we deem to be particularly anti-women. We'll have our flags and our banners and we'll make everyone sit up and take notice.

There's a secret code on all our communications so that only those organisers in the know are aware of what we are planning. You see, the TRAs have been concentrating on the wrong people all this time. It's a bit like a chess game, where the checkmate sneaks up stealthily while the Queen is under attack.
While they've been getting people mass-banned, we've been innocently talking about... well, anyway - don't want to give too much away

They'd be amazed to know that some of the organisers aren't on FWR at all. You'll find them elsewhere on the site, talking about something that seems completely unrelated - seems...
but shhh! - don't tell them!

HTH

"When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her."

Ooh! You nearly got it there.

@Vermeil

This is a complete waste of everybodies time.

Agree. Am hiding this thread. xx

This is now hate speech. We can’t even talk about cervical cancer anymore.

To any lurkers reading this thread who may have similar questions to the OP, there are a lot of good responses here and links to further reading which explains why gender ideology is the single biggest threat to women's rights that I can remember in my lifetime. We can not protect or create data on what we can not define.

i think its a good illustration of how lots of not very bright people think:

op doesnt know what a woman is and doesnt care. she thinks removing our way of talking about ourselves as a sex class is a good thing. she thinks people can change sex. she thinks if someone threatens suicide they must be 'right' and you must do whatever they want. she thinks jkr 'started' this. she doesnt want her daughter to have single sex spaces. she doesnt want her daughter to win even in womens sports. she understands male violence but thinks that evaporates the moment a man says 'oh im not male'. she doesnt believe in safe-guarding at all. she doesnt believe vulnerable women should be free - not just from violence- but intimidation and voyeurism. she thinks women just need to be nicer to men.

shes not alone, sadly. there are loads of dim-wits like her racing to make womens lives worse than they already are.

Where's he gone?

oh theyre off doing 'tangible' heroic things to help women- even though they have no fecking idea what a woman is and no idea why any women might need help.

I'll read the break it down for me post and see if that sheds any light on my confusion, but for those of you posting JK's essay, it was that that got me so annoyed. She justifies her actions because she was domestically abused by her cis male partner. How does using the language 'people who menstruate' instead of women affect domestically abused women? Lots of women don't menstruate, some trans men do, why is that controversial? She could have done anything (literally anything, the woman is a billionaire and was very popular before this) to help women, but nows she's known for trans exclusionary language. What a waste.

What is the evidence for many trans women trying to take over women's spaces? I read about boys supposedly pretending to be trans to gain access to girls bathrooms and I have to say it sounds a little far fetched, and even if it's true, it's surely rare? And even if not, what do they do once they're in there? Look at them? Do we ban gay women? If they actually attack someone then that's a crime and it's dealt with accordingly. I don't know about you guys, but for me the girls changing room at school was an absolute nightmare and boys had nothing to do with it.

There are genuine issues surrounding trans rights, that should be able to be discussed in a rational way. For instance trans people in sports. I'm no expert on that but I can see why it might concern people. Trans people in prisons. I can see why someone would be motivated to pretend to be trans to avoid men's prison, and how such an individual would be a danger to women in prisons. But I don't find these examples to be in alignment with most people's interests. Most of us aren't profession sportspeople or in prison, and while I appreciate you can show concern for things that don't concern you, it's not my experience of the great British public. We voted Tory for heavens sake!

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

Don't worry, IRL women are doing many and various things, nothing to do with 'trans' (unless they're impacted by the idiocies around the use of the word 'women' or if they've become de facto mixed sex and can no longer help all the women and girls they're meant for).
Hope you're not trying to imply women can only think and act on one issue at once?

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

And when we try to talk about it outside MN, someone pops up to call us transphobic for talking about women without adding disclaimers about transwomen.

With such a concerted campaign to demand attention and to derail other discussions, it's unsurprising that we've noticed the trans issue, surely?

Do we ban gay women?

Homophobic bingo point.

Why would you suggest banning gay women lesbians from women's loos? They're women. They should use the women's.

I'm kindly assuming that bunters is settling down for a good read of all the recommended threads and articles. When s/he's digested it all and had a long think, I'm sure s/he'll be back. Or not. We've done enough for now, I reckon.

Many a one came to be outraged and stayed to be educated. 😊

Oh, and bunters? Do have a good look at the input JKR has had to good causes, not instead of defending the language women use about ourselves, but as well as. It needn't be one or the other, you know; it can be both. Check out Lumos for starters. 😊

Question for the OP - do you think that sex segregated spaces should exist? If so, why?

I feel so sorry for JK in light of this shit.

She is a woman (yes - WOMAN) who has done so much for many different charities, campaigns publicly on her social media, yet has been jumped upon by millions who want to hang her as a part of their crusade.

Everyone is allowed an opinion. Also, if she - or I (which I do!) - wants to refer to herself as a 'woman' of course she can!

It's the bit about 'men' in 'female' spaces that resonated with me the most. I have been raped. Therefore I am uncomfortable with men - however they choose to present themselves - in the likes of changing rooms in shops, or at the gym. That is very much my problem rather than theirs, but there's no question that female-only spaces feel safer to me, and to many other people out there. FWIW, if spaces are changed to communal, I simply wouldn't use them. I wouldn't kick up a fuss. Let it be said right now that I would never campaign against someone's right to use a space, I'm just saying that I feel more comfortable with female only.

Am I 'trans-phobic'? Of course I'm bloody well not. I'd shout from the rooftops about trans rights, but what about the right for women to feel safe in their own private spaces too? By upsetting the apple-cart and changing how things have been for a VERY long time, you might be pleasing one group of people, but you're making another feel very vulnerable.

My university - instead of communal toilets - had a few small toilet rooms leading off the main corridors, which were individual toilets, a sink and a hand dryer in each one. That seemed like a good way to do things as it means that everyone could use whichever one they liked, but there was complete privacy from whoever was using another toilet.

In this changing world we absolutely need to adapt, but NOT at the expense of any other group of people, thank you. I feel that just allowing everyone in one changing room, for example, is an incredibly half arsed way to solve the problem. If you're going to make this world inclusive, do it properly or not at all.

Most of us aren't profession sportspeople or in prison,

And therefore we are not entitled to an opinion, not entitled to support those that are disadvantaged by males in our sports teams and prisons?

Oh OK then. Best stop my charity direct debit because I'm not a cancer sufferer.

Women - know your place.

What is the evidence for many trans women trying to take over women's spaces?

Here's one piece of evidence.

One in 5 prisoners in the male estate is in for sex offences. Close to 50% of trans identifying prisoners are sex offenders.

So either trans prisoners are more likely than the male prison population at large to be sex offenders, or some sex offenders are (shock horror) lying in order to try to get transferred to women's prisons.

Neither of which makes self-ID look like a particularly good idea.

and while I appreciate you can show concern for things that don't concern you

Do you? In that case you should understand that feminists are concerned with the rights and safety of all females. Not just the ones like us. So, in the case of language, we're concerned about replacing the normal word 'woman' by 'person with a cervix' or 'menstruator' out of concern for women who don't have high literacy levels, anatomical knowledge or good English. That's a really simple case. If you can't get that, frankly that's your problem.

oh god, youre really down the rabbit hole arent you-

ok, why are you using the phrase 'cis'- for women to be told we are 'comfortable' with gender stereotypes is massively offensive.
can you not see that?

no man menstruates. why does that upset you?

its not about tw taking over womens space- its about women having the right to safeguard their spaces. you dont want your daughter to have single sex changing rooms, thats your call- we want them for our girls. why are you objecting/insisting men must be around undressing women all the time?

why would gay women be banned? are you homophobic? do you believe lesbians present the same threat to women as men? dont be thick.

oh so now you agree with jrk that women in sports and prisons should be protected- but jkr is the baddy here? fml. unbelievable.

This is the feminist section so we talk about women in sport and the issues that affect them, we talk about women in prison and their safety, we talk about womens representation in politics etc. Some of these things may impact us directly some may not. I am not sure how to make it any simpler for you.

And as for this:

Most of us aren't profession sportspeople or in prison

Shame on you, OP. So only the women like you matter in your feminism.

This thread was brought to you by the "I'm alright Jack" school of faux-feminism.

I'll read the break it down for me post and see if that sheds any light on my confusion, but for those of you posting JK's essay, it was that that got me so annoyed. She justifies her actions because she was domestically abused by her cis male partner

Don't paint yourself as confused when you go on to use offensive lingo. You're not confused at all.