Debbie and Stephanie Hayton interview transcript

[Clymene]

I thought the women of FWR might be interested in the interview that Debbie and Stephanie did with the Straight Spouse Network podcast this week.

It explains quite a lot about Stephanie's demeanour in their interview with Stella O'Malley for her documentary.

* [edited by MNHQ - broken link removed] * **

Pfft. I'm quite sure Hayton is more than comfortable being 'humiliated' in public. I won't say why that is my opinion, but I'm sure others can join enough dots to get there.

And it's 'infantilizing' to offer solidarity to Stephanie and a hope that better things come her way, but it's deeply compassionate to excuse and minimize Hayton's behaviour because Hayton was struggling, depressed and is really sorry for it all now? Please.

@FloralBunting

Pfft. I'm quite sure Hayton is more than comfortable being 'humiliated' in public. I won't say why that is my opinion, but I'm sure others can join enough dots to get there.

And it's 'infantilizing' to offer solidarity to Stephanie and a hope that better things come her way, but it's deeply compassionate to excuse and minimize Hayton's behaviour because Hayton was struggling, depressed and is really sorry for it all now? Please.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

@EvenSupposing

I fucking love liberal feminism. 'Well if she didn't like it she would have left.' That is totally what women's lives are like - they absolutely all exist in a space where their agency is paramount and their choices all made in a vacuum of neutrality. Especially women with teenage children who are confronted with an ultimatum about their husband's transition.

I am not a liberal feminism. Nor I am one the infantilising feminists who think women are incapable of agency or control of their lives and are eternalvictims.

Stephanie Hayton* (typo corrected) had and has a career. She was in a position where if she had chosen to leave it would have been likely to be possible.

@FloralBunting

Pfft. I'm quite sure Hayton is more than comfortable being 'humiliated' in public. I won't say why that is my opinion, but I'm sure others can join enough dots to get there.

And it's 'infantilizing' to offer solidarity to Stephanie and a hope that better things come her way, but it's deeply compassionate to excuse and minimize Hayton's behaviour because Hayton was struggling, depressed and is really sorry for it all now? Please.

It is infantilising to assume Stephanie Hayden is not in control of her own life and decisions. It is more than a little patronising to assume she needs or wants the outpouring of sympathy and pity on here.

Think we need to be careful not to confuse Stephanies Hayton and Hayden (as I did for the first few posts in the thread!) - assuming Debbie's spouse even uses that surname.

@DeaconBoo

Think we need to be careful not to confuse Stephanies Hayton and Hayden (as I did for the first few posts in the thread!) - assuming Debbie's spouse even uses that surname.

Thanks. Autocucumber really does have a mind of its own. I don't think I've ever knowingly posted anything about Stephanie Hayden so goodness knows why her surname came up.

What a hard read that was.

What I took from it was that SH did what many women do she put up to keep her kids safe and settled. By the time she was able to process what was happening the social group she was part of were all a support group for DH and her children needed her to help them because DH could only focus on themself.
Fast forward to the interview date, what was once a marriage has reduced to a friendship, she sees DH as a friend. Yes many marriages enter this territory naturally. But she has made it clear her sexual choice is men and she misses that part of her life. She also talks about being there for her children, her goal to protect and care for them. Now they are leaving home she is thinking forward.

I think the next 5 years will be different for SH, a time when she can reflect on growth or damage caused by the person she chose to marry. What she discovers and then choses to do will be up to her and I hope whatever it is she is happy. However due to DH being so well known SH is still going to be protecting her children and herself. If she makes a choice to leave DH in the future, no matter the reason, it will be blamed on DH transition. To use that as her reason would see her labelled as transphobic and uncaring, to say they are not in love or that she wants a sexual relationship also risks the same. The historic abuse she has suffered through the transition process has been accepted and is now seen of little consequence. Although for SH it may still be a factor it may not be one that will be accepted by soviety or even her children as a reason to leave.

A web of which there are only hard choices ahead. 🙁

I do hope I am completely wrong though and jumping to awful conclusions because me being a shitty person is a damn site nicer to thinknabout thannsomeone deep down feeling miserable and trapped.

That was a tough read.

A lot of sympathy on here for Stephanie, and I have massive sympathy for her too. She was faced with impossible choices and worked through the impossibile with a fortitude and dignity that few could muster.

And she's not being sufficiently credited, IMO, as influencing Debbie's gender-critical thinking (such as it is). An incalculable ameliorating influence, for which all terves should offer thanks.

she's not being sufficiently credited, IMO, as influencing Debbie's gender-critical thinking

Yeah, I thought that too.

When she was asked about being a Lesbian and being married to a woman she was very clear that she isn't a lesbian and I felt she nearly said 'I'm not married to a woman'.

It is infantilising to assume Stephanie Hayton is not in control of her own life and decisions. It is more than a little patronising to assume she needs or wants the outpouring of sympathy and pity on here.

This is a feminist discussion forum. If that interview isn't what feminists should discuss, I'm not sure what is. I don't see how anyone could listen to that without feeling sympathy for what Stephanie went through.

I do think some posts have missed quite how strong and thoughtful she seemed (at least to me) and have denied her agency in her present choices. That said there is no doubt that's how she felt for a long time.

I don't think there's anything infantilising about recognising that women in Stephanie's position are under a great deal of pressure to present a particular face to the world, and a corresponding pressure to talk themselves into accepting and making the best of things; and that this means we can never be 100% sure that she's speaking truthfully and from the heart.

Especially when someone who subjected her to abuse is sitting right next to her.

I'm reminded of the accounts on the Transwidows threads. There are women there who've made the same 'choice' as Stephanie. They don't shout about their unhappiness in the real world, but privately admit it. We cannot say for certain that Stephanie isn't doing the same thing; nor can we say for certain that she isn't.

What we can say with certainty, based on her own account, is that Stephanie experienced her husband's transition as abusive, and that she chose to stay with the man who abused her for the sake of her children. If anyone thinks abused women staying for the kids are making a free choice I recommend an educational stint lurking on the Relationships board.

It's interesting how some of us are talking about recognizing a strong, brave woman who has been groomed and gaslit but has chosen to stay as in an abusive situation, and those who don't like that perspective characterize it as denying her agency and infantilizing.

I can't help being reminded of all those voices that say 'Why didn't you leave?' when a woman discloses domestic abuse, and refuse to believe that her situation could have been that bad.

But hey, as long as you're not being 'transphobic' and still have the TW 'ally' speaking on all sort of national platforms as proof of that, it's ok to pretend that domestic abuse is only abuse if the woman leaves.

What Floral said.

I don't think there's anything infantilising about recognising that women in Stephanie's position are under a great deal of pressure to present a particular face to the world,

I agree with this. It's not easy to break up a long-term marriage. They are also Christian which I imagine makes it harder still.

And SH has had her husband be very publicly celebrated as a woman, in the way only a man can be, including by women's rights campaigns.

Where would her support come from? Schools, universities. the church and women's rights groups were all enlisted to support DH's transition. DH even attends meetings for LGB Alliance, why, when they are heterosexual?

I support whatever choices SH makes for herself, but I feel for her, because she's been put in an impossible situation.

Stephanie has said it was an abusive situation, she has said she doesn't really remember the conversation which she is being assured happened, she has said that suicide was part of the equation, she has said that she wanted Debbie to leave, And Debbie refused.

She has said that, she herself is definitely not a lesbian and that Debbie is definitely not a 'little girl'.

She has said she didn't understand what was going on, that it was happening too fast. She was confused and angry but she had to hold it together. And that she didn't have the chance to process her emotional response.

She said "And Debbie's life at the time did revolve around Debbie. It was what Debbie wanted; Debbie was choosing. I had no say."

And Debbie said: "I guess I wanted my cake and to eat it. I wanted to transition and keep the family and have all the family life which I'd enjoyed up until then."

"And I guess different people would have would have backed off at that point but I am a little bit contrary and when people tell me, when people start objecting I then think well, okay, let's you know, let's push a bit harder and see what happens".

Have I read a completely different interview to those who think concern and empathy for this woman is 'infantilising'?

All this has happened because Debbie Hayton is a self confessed autogynephile.

Noun Edit
autogynephilia (uncountable)

The paraphilic tendency of someone who is anatomically male to be sexually aroused by the thought of being a female,

D'you know, Floral, I bloody hate this idea that we all have full agency at all times. It belies a total lack of understanding of the psychological reality of being female under patriarchy, as well as being ignorant of the workings of the human mind.

And it fucks us right over - thinking of all the women (myself included) who've retreated inside ourselves and submitted to the abuse of our bodies for our own safety, who then have to reconcile thoughts and actions and the sense of having been violated with a world that says we chose to be raped and abused so there's nothing wrong, nothing to see here - it's a sickening lie to tell, for what it does to those of us who learn the hard way that agency is an illusion men use to make themselves feel better about the things they do to us.

One can be very intelligent and capable of making good choices.

But those choices can be limited by the necessary priorities (our children's welfare,) and external circumstances.

So sometimes you have to make the choice that is the best one in that situation. Which leaves you in a situation where you have no choice (Hobson).

I find it a bit weird to be having any sort of discussion about SH's agency in the situation based on one short interview.

I'm also not sure that it is the main issue or a bystander's issue.

I do, however, wish Stephanie all the best for the future and hope that she feels empowered to, and is supported to be empowered to, make decisions that centre her and which are about her best interests and her desires. She deserves this and more.

@EvenSupposing

I fucking love liberal feminism. 'Well if she didn't like it she would have left.' That is totally what women's lives are like - they absolutely all exist in a space where their agency is paramount and their choices all made in a vacuum of neutrality. Especially women with teenage children who are confronted with an ultimatum about their husband's transition.

Yup. All the 'leave the bastard' stuff on the relationships board ignores the fact that many women have to factor in the well-being of children and their life stages and the fact that separating may plunge them and their children into poverty and instability that the children will never forgive them for. It assumes that all women have reasonably paid and stable work to rely on, savings and friends and family to fall back on and access to a benefits system that will support them.

No understanding that after 20 years of living with a narcissist with a secret life he failed to communicate with her, Stephanie won't know up from down or left from right and probably won't want to think too deeply about the fact that she's spent most of her adult life in a relationship with a person she didn't really know.

I think when you hear a woman say that she agreed with her partner what her boundaries were, and that if her boundaries were breached the partner needed to leave - and those boundaries were breached and the partner then refused to leave,

and talk about how after a great deal of effort she was permitted a little more say, and her partner began to allow her a just a bit more of a voice....

it's hard to hear anything but someone who attempted to end the relationship when it became unbearable but was not permitted to by the person who held really quite alarming percentage of the power and control of the relationship. Which is the voice of a woman who has been trapped in an abusive relationship against her will. It's coercive control. And when you then hear that woman talk about their 'friendship' with this partner....

No. A friendship is a reciprocal and mutually rewarding thing with someone who treats you with respect, with care, with regard, with equality of interest in you and your needs. This is a woman who needed the Freedom Programme, Women's Aid and legal support to get out of the relationship when she was no longer able to cope with what was being done to her and her children. Women are not fucking support humans who are supposed to settle nicely for the dregs of what a male partner may feel able to spare them from meeting their own very important needs and interests.

I'd signpost all readers in doubt of this to the pinned post at the top of the relationships board.

And I'd add that when you read something like that, and you see the grinding, appalling sex based inequality, the phrase 'feeling like a woman' rings very, very hollow indeed.

Yup. All the 'leave the bastard' stuff on the relationships board ignores the fact that many women...

I think this is a massive misunderstanding of the LTB comments on the relationships board. The women saying LTB really understand how hard it is, they don't suggest it to make a woman's life harder. They suggest it because the women are living in horrible situations and would be better off away from men who are treating them badly. They also know that women have been socialised to put their needs after men's needs, so it often needs saying bluntly.

Thank you for the transcript. I think Stephanie sounds like an amazing woman. I think her kids are lucky to have her. I think Debbie is extra-ordinarily lucky to have her. I agree with the suggestion that she has influenced some of Debbie's views.

I hope that at some point Stephanie feels able to put her own happiness first and, whatever decision that leads to, I wish her all the best.

Things that struck me:

Firstly the timing. This is not the first time I’ve heard of a man deciding the right time to transition is just as their children were about to start important exams. Can’t speak for all women, but there’s no way I would be so selfish as to hide something for forty years AND THEN DECIDE TO ANNOUNCE IT WHEN MY CHILDREN WERE ENTERING ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THEY WILL DO IN SHAPING THEIR LIVES.

Second: How many times did he pretend he was thinking about his wife, but then demonstrate that he’d lied?

“I won’t do it because you’re more important“
... waits for Stephanie to say, “oh no dear, you must!”
...that reaction is not forthcoming “I’m going to anyway.”

“I’ll leave if that’s what you want,”
“I’d like you to leave now.”
“Not going to.”

This part of the relationship was unequivocally abusive. Both parties recognise that. And it may have returned to some kind of stability for now, but the issues that caused it are not resolved.

Having been in a long-term abusive marriage, I know very well that there can be long periods of relief. You know somewhere deep inside that it isn’t properly equal and your husband doesn’t really have the respect for you that you deserve, but it’s not actively negative at the time, and so you stay.

But it’s never genuine happiness. You’re living with compromise. Never completely yourself. There were long periods when I felt my ex was my best friend. But eventually it reared its head and he did more damage to my children and my relationship with my children.

And they express regret for the abuse, but do they ever really address it? I hoped my ex would get psychological help because he knew his actions were abusive... but he never has. Because for all he says he recognises that abusiveness, he doesn’t really believe he needs to change. He makes all the right noises too. Abusers are masters of deceit.

I hope Stephanie finds the strength to take some time, put herself first, and work out what’s best for her, now she no longer feels the need to protect her children.

I know it's bad form to say that I told you so, but I don't care.

I hope this makes some women listen more to trans widows.