Debbie and Stephanie Hayton interview transcript

[Clymene]

I thought the women of FWR might be interested in the interview that Debbie and Stephanie did with the Straight Spouse Network podcast this week.

It explains quite a lot about Stephanie's demeanour in their interview with Stella O'Malley for her documentary.

* [edited by MNHQ - broken link removed] * **

@JKRowlingforever

She could have thrown Debbie out. She could have left with the kids. It's quite obvious that Stephanie is a strong woman who holds her own in life. She has chosen to stay with Debbie despite debbie's mental illness for the show of her family. It's a valid choice and it appears to have worked out well for them. They seem good together

She asked Debbie to go. Debbie refused. Stephanie didn't push it because their daughter was about to take her GCSEs.

I don't think it's infantilising to recognise when women are victims of abusive patterns of behaviour. It is a long running theme of the relationships board here.

What if Debbie had depression? Or anxiety disorder? Lots of people stay with their mentally ill partners. It's not great but it's not necessarily abusive. They seem like good friends

Stephanie said

Do I miss being in a relationship with a man? Yes, I do. That is a grief to me but not big enough to say, 'Well, actually I'm going to get divorced and get out there and have a look'. Debbie is my best friend and I think at the moment that's, that's my choice

And a poster jumps in with:-

I hope she finds happiness and ideally the love of another man, who can cherish her

Because clearly Stephanie can't be trusted to know what she really wants.

What’s surprised me is it’s clear that Debbie’s story is incredibly stereotypical - the post hoc justifications, the all consuming compulsion, the links with trans groups, the secrecy, the refusal to compromise, the sexism. Given that DH acknowledges they are male and actively campaigns against self id I thought the story would be different.

@WeeBisom

What’s surprised me is it’s clear that Debbie’s story is incredibly stereotypical - the post hoc justifications, the all consuming compulsion, the links with trans groups, the secrecy, the refusal to compromise, the sexism. Given that DH acknowledges they are male and actively campaigns against self id I thought the story would be different.

This.

And that's what's informing the women on here. The fact that it's oh my God just all part of the same damn script. Utterly predictable.

Personally, all I can see is manipulation. And it keeps happening. I keep seeing it.

More recently, she became active in the transgender debate where she seeks to maintain the rights of transgender people without compromising the rights of women or the safeguarding of children.

Now we know that’s not true. Anyone know if DH has helped to update the NASUWT’s transgender policy so that women teachers can now have single sex spaces and not be threatened with a disciplinary if they use the evidence of their own eyes and a life time of speaking the English language and use factually correct pronouns?

A very hard read. I would like to hear far more from SH and far less from DH.

I wonder how different her interview would have been if completed on her own.

I'm happy to have someone like DH actually speaking up, but oh my god, what a self serving gaslighting prick she is.

This. But maybe with ( ) put in somewhere.

I fucking love liberal feminism. 'Well if she didn't like it she would have left.' That is totally what women's lives are like - they absolutely all exist in a space where their agency is paramount and their choices all made in a vacuum of neutrality. Especially women with teenage children who are confronted with an ultimatum about their husband's transition.

"Debbie: It's really difficult hearing that and thinking back to that time. Yeah, I was in a bad way psychologically, my mental health was in tatters really. I wanted my cake and to eat it. I wanted to transition and keep the family and have all the family life which I'd enjoyed up until then. And trying to hold all those things in. But you know, the most important person in there at the time and I thinking back it was clear, it was me. And trying to make space for other people in my mind was very difficult, even Stephanie and the children."

Whatever your views it's important to hear this sort of admission. AGPs exist, and they need to speak up and be heard more often with the self reflection of time and regret instead of the gung ho/you go gurl that usually accompanies their interviews.
Perhaps if more young men heard these sorts of stories they would make different choices which would impact the people in their lives differently.

I did feel that I was losing my voice (voice breaks). And so I remember, I was seeing a counsellor at the time and I remember turning up one session and just actually being unable to speak.

This is such a moment of despair in this story. Fucking hell what a horrendous situation to find yourself in.

Thanks for cutting, pasting and linking Clymene!

DH says: But you know, the most important person in there at the time and I thinking back it was clear, it was me. Not - I thought I was more important, but I was more important.

Says it all, I thought. Stephanie didn't seem to have any say in how any of this went - even when she told him to leave, he decided to stay - and maybe that has taught her that she doesn't get to have a say, so she might as well go along with it. She said herself, she lost her voice. He made her feel like she couldn't even speak. Awful.

I thought the interviewer was good to keep focusing on Stephanie although Debbie did still manage to talk a lot. I bet he wouldn't have encouraged her to do the interview alone, even though it's actually a show called 'straight spouse voices'.

Thank you so much for doing the transcript op.

I've been thinking for a while that DH seems to enjoy all the attention & admiration they get for being oh-so-honest about their transition & behaviour. To me, this seems like a continuation that & an escalation in that, Stephanie hasn't been particularly vocal about their relationship but now here she is backing up the admissions of bad behaviour but all carefully couched in language designed to minimise the impact. "DH was v selfish but they can see that now so it's all ok." It's like a narrative of a struggle that's designed to make you feel sorry for the one who's struggling first, then the supporting players second.

I know someone who was a homeless drug addict. He went through a really dark period in his life & he'll be honest about that & the impact that had on his friends & family. I get a totally different vibe from him than DH. I can't pinpoint exactly what gives me that feeling but I'd trust him to babysit my kids, I'd never leave DH alone in my house. Perhaps it's a self-awareness thing - for all DH's admissions of past behaviours, I don't get the impression of a real understanding, like he's learnt to say those things because he gets praised for "honesty."

Obviously, I don't actually know DH personally so this is just the impression I get from their writing & public speaking. Perhaps if we actually got to know each other I'd feel differently. I doubt it, though!

@Swallowzandamazons

Just a quick warning

That second link - the site set off my Norton BIG style and it blocked a "Malicious attack" by malware.

I also got pop ups of scantily clad cartoon characters with big butts and barely there thongs filling my screen.

Something's not right about that link.

Anyone who hasn't opened it yet - don't.

People need to be a lot more careful about opening links in this area of Mumsnet. I Really. I cannot stress this enough.

@EvenSupposing

I fucking love liberal feminism. 'Well if she didn't like it she would have left.' That is totally what women's lives are like - they absolutely all exist in a space where their agency is paramount and their choices all made in a vacuum of neutrality. Especially women with teenage children who are confronted with an ultimatum about their husband's transition.

Thank you for this post.

That poor woman. That interview’s an excellent example of why feminist groups should be giving platforms to women, not to their husbands - however the DHs might identify.

Given that DH acknowledges they are male and actively campaigns against self id I thought the story would be different.

I thought it was interesting that Debbie said she fell for the 'I'm a woman in a man's body' and Stephanie said she felt the counsellor and some of the LGBT community were a negative influence.

It's also interesting that Debbie has only come to the realisation that she isn't a woman very recently through the self ID debate. It's clear her thinking has changed substantially and recently.

How revealing that all previous interviews had been with the “widows” before and not with both parties. All to give DH a huge opportunity to grandstand and obfuscate. I’d be interested in hearing the conversations which took place in the Hayton household about this.

It's also interesting that Debbie has only come to the realisation that she isn't a woman very recently through the self ID debate. It's clear her thinking has changed substantially and recently.

So it should be a piece of piss to address the NASUWT guidelines they helped write to now say that women teachers should be able to maintain their own privacy boundaries, right?

As far as I know, Debbie, a teacher, has sidestepped this question every time it's been asked.

Happy to be corrected tho.

Dont like or trust DH. Never have.
His male entitlement is overwhelming.

Stephanie is clearly doing what she believes she needs to for her children. DH is doing whatever he like for himself.
My heart aches for her.

As far as I know, Debbie, a teacher, has sidestepped this question every time it's been asked.

Has it been asked of her? If not email and suggest precisely what you think needs to change.

That interview and a number of her previous posts suggest a willingness to change based on engagement with women.

All to give DH a huge opportunity to grandstand

I didn't think it was grandstanding. To sit there and listen to your partner describe you essentially abusing them, to admit to being selfish and self-absorbed and mentally ill; all in public.

I have been through depression and have treated DP very poorly in the past. I would not wish to have to dissect that in public.

How revealing that all previous interviews had been with the “widows” before and not with both parties.

It is odd that a podcast called "straight spouse network", aimed at giving a voice to the straight partners of LGBT people, included the lgbt partner in this episode.

Inevitably, it did take the focus away from the intended party and onto the lgbt partner. That was a pity.

I think Debbie realized that if she wanted to stay within the family, she needed to actually start thinking about the family a little bit more, rather than just what she wanted and how she was going to do things. And after that, I started having a little bit more of a say and Debbie would ask my opinion about things and I felt that my opinion was actually making a small amount of difference, maybe not huge, but a small amount of difference.

Crumbs. Absolute bloody crumbs. This always seems to be the huge gesture of good will on the part of the male person: that 'little bit' of appropriate reciprocal relationship behaviour that is a huge effort on their part and yet the most the female can hope for, and only gain after much reasoning and explaining and pleading.

The female however gets to run around like a blue arsed fly doing all the reciprocal relationship work constantly, all the heavy lifting is hers and all in a day's work, no one is going to plead with them to maybe could they please just do a little and try just a bit harder, if it's not too much trouble?

Getting very, very tired of hearing interviewers and so many society voices in general giving male people a free pass on this behaviour when they have this particular excuse, and this attitude underpins so very much of the whole debate.

@raddledoldmisanthropist

As far as I know, Debbie, a teacher, has sidestepped this question every time it's been asked.

Has it been asked of her? If not email and suggest precisely what you think needs to change.

That interview and a number of her previous posts suggest a willingness to change based on engagement with women.

Yes it's been asked. In fact I think it's been asked on here. Debbie has an account on here.