Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

Radical feminism (the GC kind) doesn't really align with Tory values on 99% of issues. It's surely not surprising to you that claiming otherwise might be met with a smidge of incredulity.

Well as this 99% claim is just that, a claim, with absolutely no explanation at all then no one knows what you are incredulous about.

And no, I didn't say that you hate conservatives. Not everything said on the thread is about you.

I agree (but come at it from a different angle). I am a socialist feminist (old school type) and whereas I am on board with the vast majority of the pro-women's rights/identity stuff I am also sometimes a bit bemused that Britain's socialist-feminist past in activism and ideas/texts is not more front-and-centre (and there are also some excellent US SF texts).

My own view is that something like Anges Nutter some posters have only had opportunity to learn some things about feminism, whereas I had the opportunity to read every bloody early second wave text out there because that time was closer to my time.

I also agree with Floral when she says

"Over the past few years, FWR has been the seed bed for a wider movement called 'GC'. I am not part of that movement, and I am clear about that at every opportunity. I am a feminist. I also believe, very strongly, in free speech and mutual respect for people, not ideas, but I consider it a separate conviction to feminism, though a useful one if feminism is to succeed"

I am not a rad fem and I am not a GC fem - although I take a similar perspective. This does not sum up my feminism though.

The other thing I have found is that there is some fear of diversity and difference of opinion and some behaviours that are a little too close to 'the other side' at times.

I remember in a discussion I pointed out that the kinds of pronouns used by the trans and GD community today were one proposed by feminists because outing yourself as female used to be dangerous. Marge Piercy uses then in a wonderful book called 'Woman on the Edge of Time (and I think that Sally Miller Gearhart used them too, and maybe Johanna Russ). I was basically told that this text was 'wrong' and it/I must secretly be on the other side - by a poster who I think admitted they knew nothing of the text, Piercy or that era. I found that quite worrying.

In a thread similar to this on AIBU or chat I made some fairly similar comments to what I have made here and was roundly attacked by a poster who was clearly a regular with a changed name - this poster questioned my authenticity and credentials because I dared criticise the orthodoxy - and the same was happening to other posters too.

I found that worrying too and close to accusations of 'wrong-think'.

You seem to be stating that right-wing women can't be feminists. Am I right?

There are a lot of assumptions in your statements that are, in fact, pretty anti-women, imo.

I guess I'd like to know if there is a place on the internet for socialist feminists where patriarchal nonsense like mother-blaming for mental illness just doesn't arise.

You what?

@Asterion

You seem to be stating that right-wing women can't be feminists. Am I right?

There are a lot of assumptions in your statements that are, in fact, pretty anti-women, imo.

I agree. I run my own business and I am working with DS on his business start up, in particular we are approaching investors for funding. I am also investing my savings actively to build a retirement income.

Three generations ago this would be unthinkable for the females working as domestic servants in my family. But this is evil market capitalism in the OPs posts above.

Can women only be feminists if they're state employees? Is female entrepreneurship a tory value which is not aligned?

Bullshit.

You're not policing but my post was 'unnecessary'? Righto.

For me the sex based oppression/reproductive capacity is the bottom line of all feminism. It can play out in different political persuasions but right and left wing feminists would want bodily autonomy and control over their reproductive capacity. Remember we are only 1-2 pieces of legislation away from this being taken away. Rape is virtually decriminalised. Let’s try not to eat each other.

It’s also why I was astounded when Munro B said not to ‘centre reproductive rights’ because it absolutely is the bloody centre for me.

@FloralBunting

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3583612-A-declaration

I posted this thread in 2019, and I feel it very much encapsulates my perspective. And if I posted it today, it would be swamped with scolding. So I agree with you, yes.

I was here when you posted that floral but I missed it first time round.

It is excellent advice and I'm going to try and follow it just like I try and follow the advice on Bunbury.

Thank you for that. xx

For me the sex based oppression/reproductive capacity is the bottom line of all feminism. It can play out in different political persuasions but right and left wing feminists would want bodily autonomy and control over their reproductive capacity. Remember we are only 1-2 pieces of legislation away from this being taken away. Rape is virtually decriminalised. Let’s try not to eat each other

Partly agreed - but don't forget that this is also about class and wealth. Richer woken have always had, in most instances, more access to abortion than poor women.

As a socialist feminist, I'd always see the links with class here (and race too) (not forgetting eugenicist platforms that reversed this, but which also denied poor and black women their reproductive rights).

The names from a K.Flay song, and I'm an ordinary feminist who lives in Australia and votes Green.

You can advance search my posts....if I'm actually an American TRA plant, I've been playing the long game.

Some regular posters here know who I am from elsewhere.

The conspiracy stuff is silly.

And now I really have to go to bed.

You've been floralled!

(By me. Toodle-pip!)

If you live in Australia you might be missing some of the context in terms of what has happened to the political landscape in the UK, mysogeny is rife in the left, the closed doors lobbying to reduce women's rights, the refusal to listen to women's groups, the failure to condemn attacks on women's meetings etc.

For me it is the political left that have moved position, not me. That might explain some of what you see here.

@GoingAroundBeingAWoman

You've been floralled!

(By me. Toodle-pip!)

I don't know what that means? But thanks?!

The conspiracy stuff is silly.

Yes, it is. I have no doubt you're posting in good faith.
I also think (know!) that you've inferred positions which other posters didn't even slightly mean to imply - but I believe that came from you reading more critically and from a position of much greater personal knowledge. I hesitated to post on this thread but I'm going to, to apologise if I posted without sufficient thought and knowledge on the other thread, and to try to quash unpleasant and unjustified aspersions against you.

@PronounssheRa

If you live in Australia you might be missing some of the context in terms of what has happened to the political landscape in the UK, mysogeny is rife in the left, the closed doors lobbying to reduce women's rights, the refusal to listen to women's groups, the failure to condemn attacks on women's meetings etc.

For me it is the political left that have moved position, not me. That might explain some of what you see here.

No, I've followed the situation in the UK closely, have friends there (lived there for a time) and it only differs in degree from what's happening here. Not at all unaware of the multitude of ways the UK labour party has let women down. Arrived on Mumsnet via Jennifer James fundraiser to challenge mixed sex women's places in the party.

@ErrolTheDragon

The conspiracy stuff is silly.

Yes, it is. I have no doubt you're posting in good faith.
I also think (know!) that you've inferred positions which other posters didn't even slightly mean to imply - but I believe that came from you reading more critically and from a position of much greater personal knowledge. I hesitated to post on this thread but I'm going to, to apologise if I posted without sufficient thought and knowledge on the other thread, and to try to quash unpleasant and unjustified aspersions against you.

I used to post as Jane's Kettle when we had the ROGD support thread going. Am definitely not a plant. I can't read tone well, so don't know if your post above is making fun? If it isn't, I'm glad.

I think there have been some unfair suggestions about what I asked; oh well, that's Mumsnet. I didn't really expect so much hostility, but just because I know I'm real doesn't mean anyone else does.

I am quite confused at this stage, but as I said, have had my questions answered, which I appreciate, and must stop procrastinating about sleep.

I just think maybe save the outing of TRAs for posters who are actually TRAs 'cos I'm not.

That last bit not directed at you, Errol, but at ppl who want to trollhunt.

I can't read tone well, so don't know if your post above is making fun? If it isn't, I'm glad.

It absolutely isn't - and personally I'm somewhat relieved to hear you say don't read tone well!

@ErrolTheDragon

I can't read tone well, so don't know if your post above is making fun? If it isn't, I'm glad.

It absolutely isn't - and personally I'm somewhat relieved to hear you say don't read tone well!

Why? (Remember I'm real tired..) Did I misread something you said? If so, sorry.

My difficulty with tone is why I crowdsourced some opinion :)

OP, writing as a long term socialist feminist I would comment that you are perhaps expecting people to expend their emotional and written labour to argue with things you don’t agree with, and then judging the whole of FWR by what you see as a lack of that pushback. But a) this place is not a monolith, it’s a collection of individuals, and b) I choose to deploy my labour elsewhere. If I see something I don’t like my response is often to simply ignore it as I don’t have the energy for online fights - I need to keep my energy for real life fights. I don’t think you can judge my views by the fact I may different choices from you.

OP I agree with you as well. Long gone are the days of the midnight misogynists being roundly mocked and laughed off - it’s not uncommon to see “women are like this” arguments embraced by many replies imo. I also agree it came about the time as GC shut down. I preferred here to GC as they were often Infested by right wing men pretending to be GC (men dominate reddit - it’s also why every “women’s” group on reddit has a large proportion of male posters when you look at the data) and the result was often very mean spirited. Here I felt was at the very least female led and with a left wing PoV.

Yet still I think there’s a range of political views here so I don’t lose all hope. I grew up in a more libertarian intellectual home, but have been solidly voting democrat (I’m American) since I could vote.

I guess it depends on what you mean by “left” Also. I concur with what pp said about it being more about the axis of authoritarianism than any other part of the political spectrum.

I’ve become extremely disillusioned by the authoritarian progressivism of today - but I shouldn’t be shocked - it was the Progressivism of liberal Elites in the early 20th c that led to Eugenics. The idea we should mould peoples thoughts, genes, and bodies Against their consent and “For the greater good” is something we are seeing a resurgence of in the present day. Is there any surprise there’s a backlash?

Btw the contempt shown today by the elite “woke” progressives towards the working classes is something Also shared by the Early 20th century Progressive eugenicists. What goes around comes around I guess.