Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

@BlackWaveComing

But, btw, I do see that alignment between feminists and social conservatives on some of the gender stuff looks somewhat odd at times- they wouldn't usually be natural bedfellows.

I lot of GC feminists on here do say that they are worried about the trans children movement because it may be to a degree about making homosexual children "acceptable". There are certainly cases cited of this. So I think some are coming from a place of anti-homophobia.

In short, it is a mixed bag from what I have seen.

@GoingAroundBeingAWoman

Can anyone hazard a guess as to the point of this thread?

You could just ask me.

I've posted here a long time, have experienced the nightmare of having two kids experience ROGD, and have spent considerable time d fending gender critical feminism here and elsewhere.

You can insinuate it's for nefarious reasons, but that would be a lie.

It was posted to find out if others aligned with me politically had noticed a shift (some have, some haven't) and if socialist GC feminist spaces existed online.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[quote raspberryfields]@BlackWaveComing

But, btw, I do see that alignment between feminists and social conservatives on some of the gender stuff looks somewhat odd at times- they wouldn't usually be natural bedfellows.

I lot of GC feminists on here do say that they are worried about the trans children movement because it may be to a degree about making homosexual children "acceptable". There are certainly cases cited of this. So I think some are coming from a place of anti-homophobia.

In short, it is a mixed bag from what I have seen. [/quote]
Yes, of course many come from a place of anti-homophobia.

Idk why, and maybe I'm just naive, but I'd kind of assumed on a feminist board, we'd not see anything other than that.

BlackWave, the issue, as I see it, is that there are many of us who are feminists, first and foremost, and who try to genuinely centre women in our lives - politics, conversation, and other choices.

Some of us are old school left wing, and feel betrayed by the shift towards neo-liberal individualism in the broader movement. Some of us lean right.

You might notice I occasionally do a 'public service announcement' reminder that this board is FWR - the focus is unapologetically women, whatever it's painted as elsewhere.

Over the past few years, FWR has been the seed bed for a wider movement called 'GC'. I am not part of that movement, and I am clear about that at every opportunity. I am a feminist. I also believe, very strongly, in free speech and mutual respect for people, not ideas, but I consider it a separate conviction to feminism, though a useful one if feminism is to succeed.

Because FWR has felt like the only place some of these issues can have an airing, it has become a magnet for that wider movement, and because that wider movement is not all feminist, by a long chalk, the focus here has been diluted. I find that frustrating.

The moderation policy has muted many of us, too, and there have been a number of times when I have had posts deleted for breaking the arbitrary guidelines, which makes me guarded and unconsciously tentative.

Given that, I find myself holding back, even when I see the many posts now that centre men or casually rip into women, which I probably shouldn't do.

The tone has shifted, imo. I think YANBU. Time was if a thread was started about a man, I could say something like "I don't care what he thinks, why are we grateful for his support/frightened by his threats?" and I wouldn't get a lot of 'You're an extremist rad fem, NAMALT, we need allies!' in reply.

I posted on a thread the other say that was taking the mick out of a woman saying silly things, pointing out that if it was a thread about a man, it would be swiss-cheesed and pulled. That's not to say I don't think we should not criticize women - it is to say that the balance is well off here.

TL;DR - YANBU, FWR has shifted, and the reasons are the influx of posters from a broader GC movement, and the punitive, capricious moderation policy. (I type that out and I am squashing down thoughts that it will be used against me in any possibly future infractions. That's how much it's affected me.)

Thank you blackwave.

I was hoping you'd weigh in, Floral. Thank you. I put weight on your perspective. You've explained it really clearly; much more clearly than I have.

The mod policies have definitely made things harder, that's for sure.

I guess for me, personally, I am happy to work with conservative women on discrete actions where we have a goal in common. I can think of quite a few, not just gender. Some women I work with best are both religious and conservatively inclined.

But that doesn't mean I enjoy the dilution of focus here from what it was previously.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3583612-A-declaration

I posted this thread in 2019, and I feel it very much encapsulates my perspective. And if I posted it today, it would be swamped with scolding. So I agree with you, yes.

Erstwhile Labour member and lifelong Labour voter here, although why I should feel obliged to state my credentials before posting I really don't know. Anyway, thank you for your concern but I'll talk to whomever I want.

@FloralBunting

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3583612-A-declaration

I posted this thread in 2019, and I feel it very much encapsulates my perspective. And if I posted it today, it would be swamped with scolding. So I agree with you, yes.

Some names in that thread I miss seeing :(

Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was just me. It's not. Sanity intact.

FWR still does good stuff. I guess each of us needs to weigh up whether it's the right place for us as things shift.

I'll always be very grateful to the feminists here who pulled me out of my lowest ROGD moments. And bravo to all the women, feminist or not, who are focused on safeguarding kids and vulnerable women.

I lot of GC feminists on here do say that they are worried about the trans children movement because it may be to a degree about making homosexual children "acceptable". There are certainly cases cited of this. So I think some are coming from a place of anti-homophobia.

I just think this a complete misunderstanding. I’ve not come across that on here - its that the transkids movement has the potential to make being gay/lesbian unacceptable that the left/liberal GC feminists would have the issue with. I think their is a GC wing that disagrees with trans kids because they see essentialised sex roles operating.

I’m a lifelong Tory, and I resent the silly idea that only the Left can represent women’s interests.
My party has twice had women as prime ministers, Labour never.
My party has refused self ID and protected women’s single sex spaces from invasion by men. Labour insists TWAW and wants to revive self ID, destroying women’s rights to safety and privacy in sports, prisons, refuges and changing rooms.

And I have a much loved Communist DD who also posts on this site (as Suffrajester) and is welcomed here. The Communists are the honourable exception on the Left, in that they, unlike Labour, also support women’s sex based rights. But they are a tiny minority in the UK.
FWR is accepting of all feminists whatever their politics. Many posters feel politically homeless because of their betrayal by Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens.
Healthy debate requires input from the whole political spectrum - and it’s definitely alive and kicking here!

@Floisme

Erstwhile Labour member and lifelong Labour voter here, although why I should feel obliged to state my credentials before posting I really don't know. Anyway, thank you for your concern but I'll talk to whomever I want.

Unnecessary. Nobody is policing who you speak to. I'm considering who I want to align with. Very different to telling you what to do.

Interesting as I probably would have described myself as moderately right wing in my younger years whereas this board in particular has coaxed me into some more 'left' lines of thinking that I hadn't previously explored.

I don't think I would describe myself as 'left-wing' but nor would I describe myself as 'right-wing' anymore. I'm a mixed bag across a number of different issues, as are perhaps are a lot of people?

When your opinions don't neatly align with any particular faction or political party and you're committed to examining individual issues on their merits as far as possible, I think it's inevitable that you'll often find yourself with strange bedfellows, or so I'm finding!

Not sure I fit into your intended audience but I hope this is vaguely helpful anyway!

I should say that I've not been here much longer than a year, for context.

@Babdoc

I’m a lifelong Tory, and I resent the silly idea that only the Left can represent women’s interests. My party has twice had women as prime ministers, Labour never. My party has refused self ID and protected women’s single sex spaces from invasion by men. Labour insists TWAW and wants to revive self ID, destroying women’s rights to safety and privacy in sports, prisons, refuges and changing rooms. And I have a much loved Communist DD who also posts on this site (as Suffrajester) and is welcomed here. The Communists are the honourable exception on the Left, in that they, unlike Labour, also support women’s sex based rights. But they are a tiny minority in the UK. FWR is accepting of all feminists whatever their politics. Many posters feel politically homeless because of their betrayal by Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens. Healthy debate requires input from the whole political spectrum - and it’s definitely alive and kicking here!

What are some Tory policies, beyond belatedly dropping self-ID after raising it in the first place, that directly benefit the material lives of the most vulnerable women?

I'm genuinely curious. What housing policies, refuge policies, childcare, justice and penal policies, disability, welfare, employment policies...?

@InfiniteSheldon

I'm WC to my very core and the Left has never done anything for me. I read but post rarely on these boards as I do find them patronising and dismissive of the center and right wing. The concept that Left is good and voting Right is against a WC women's interests is laughable. The policies of the Left create benefit traps, excessive meddling in working practices mean women aren't welcome in many work places and our jobs aren't recognised. Under more centre and Right wing work, employment is valued and rewarded. The left needs it's women to be victims the Right expects us to be warriors. These boards and Mumsnet are very Middle Class. For example many of my female self employed friends are in the beauty industry yet saw their work put bottom of the list recently. I didn't see many feminists fighting for them and these boards were silent on the unfair treatment of an industry dominated by females, worth a sizeable proportion of GDP and discriminated against.

thanks InfiniteSheldon - I can only speak by my experience but I don't subscribe to the idea that only left wing people are the 'good guys'.

I know my opinion has been specifically not requested on this thread but it is a free country so...

I think it is dangerous for any group to assume that they are automatically in the right without looking at facts and evidence and continually questioning and checking the impacts of their actions and ideas.

Personally I have never had a good experience with the execution of some of the philosophies of the left - some are good on paper but when they are imposed on real people you can see where the cracks form. The instinct then seems to be to impose more rules to fix it which ends up with more unintended consequences.

I feel that people in general do very well when they are empowered and incentivised to achieve the highest level on their hierarchy of needs (Maslow). Identifying honestly and acting to remove barriers for people is important but not always the key to success for some people - some of the most successful people in this country came from very challenging backgrounds and often this is what inspired them.

Obviously we need to work very hard to ensure that those that can't have a strong safety net and it is the balance between challenge and support that we need to keep working on. No political group or government is perfect but the important thing is that we all keep trying to improve.

The whole right wing bad left wing good message is ludicrous.

I disagree that feminism is automatically left wing. I find it difficult to navigate people whose default position is to hate the government. In a democracy we build agreement and consensus. Starting from a position that you have to hate conservatives is completely off putting.

The OP says several times how FWR is not prioritising Left wing approaches to poverty and housing and yet says nothing more. Please start threads on these subjects, that's surely more feminist than moaning at women for not sounding left enough.

@EducateAFemaleCat

Interesting as I probably would have described myself as moderately right wing in my younger years whereas this board in particular has coaxed me into some more 'left' lines of thinking that I hadn't previously explored.

I don't think I would describe myself as 'left-wing' but nor would I describe myself as 'right-wing' anymore. I'm a mixed bag across a number of different issues, as are perhaps are a lot of people?

When your opinions don't neatly align with any particular faction or political party and you're committed to examining individual issues on their merits as far as possible, I think it's inevitable that you'll often find yourself with strange bedfellows, or so I'm finding!

Not sure I fit into your intended audience but I hope this is vaguely helpful anyway!

Yes, of course. I said I appreciated all the perspectives and I meant it (except for the snarky ones, I don't appreciate those!)

I don't think BlackWave is trying to police the conversation, or suggest that only the left is feminist, which would be a ridiculous claim, especially in the current circumstances.

I've many times had conversations about avoiding purity politics, and I'm very much in that camp. However, there is a nuanced position (oo, I used the word I hate!) whereby we can say "I don't agree with everything that person says, and it's important to acknowledge that, but on this topic, we agree and can work together."

The point is that it's very, very easy to compromise and dilute your focus, and it's ingrained socially that women's concerns should always be the first to give way, and there is no reason why that wouldn't happen in FWR, sadly. I think it's right to push back on that a little.

I certainly think it's fine to have this conversation, and I don't think it's that helpful to be asking why the OP has posted. She's having a conversation on a feminist chat board about focusing on women from her political perspective. That's what we should be engaging with, not hanging on every twitter utterance from some cocky bloke with a chip on his shoulder.

@Escapeplanning

The whole right wing bad left wing good message is ludicrous.

I disagree that feminism is automatically left wing. I find it difficult to navigate people whose default position is to hate the government. In a democracy we build agreement and consensus. Starting from a position that you have to hate conservatives is completely off putting.

The OP says several times how FWR is not prioritising Left wing approaches to poverty and housing and yet says nothing more. Please start threads on these subjects, that's surely more feminist than moaning at women for not sounding left enough.

If you read what I've said, I've explicitly acknowledged the value of conservatism to society. And that some of the women I most enjoy working with on women's issues come from a conservative perspective. I'm not sure where you're getting 'hate conservatives' from, but it's not from me.

Radical feminism (the GC kind) doesn't really align with Tory values on 99% of issues. It's surely not surprising to you that claiming otherwise might be met with a smidge of incredulity.

@NotTerfNorCis

I think that genderism is outside of the usual socialist/social conservative divide. That's why people from both sides can oppose it.

There's going to be differences. Both radical feminists and conservatives see gender as a social construct that doesn't itself define whether someone is male, female, both or neither. But radical feminists think that people should be free to act outside of gender norms (without this influencing whether they ARE male or female) while conservatives think they should stay within them.

Despite those differences, there are many things feminists and conservatives can agree on. For example, the idea that kids can self-diagnose as 'being a different gender' and then move on to hormone treatment and surgery. Or the aggressive suppression of free speech (there is a danger that this side of the debate can take over, because it blocks everything else). Or the idea that a male person can 'identify' into women's sports, refuges, prisons and changing rooms. Or the damage to families as seen evidenced here on the transwidows thread.

Most of what currently calls itself the left - the liberal, rather than the socialist side - has enforced an unconditional acceptance of genderism. That has created an overlap between feminists and conservatives on this issue, which is used by genderists against feminists. I think so long as people remain aware of what they stand for politically, and know when to draw a line, we can get through this.

I’m conservative and I don’t believe people should stay within gender norms. That’s a lazy stereotype.

Anyhow, I'm in another time zone than most of you, so won't be contributing further tonight.

Thanks for your thoughts; I feel like my questions were answered, so much appreciated.

I also find there's a lot of homophobic tinges to comments eg a thread defending someone who is against kids learning about gay relationships

That thread was started by a TRA, with the title 'no comment' and a link to a news item (and no comment in the OP). I suspected from the start that it was posted to obtain screenshots.

I would be v up for having some chats in here on traditional lefty feminist topics like financial inequality for single mothers for eg.

I have been reflecting on this thread and thinking about the Overton window.
I think the things you mention, floral, are quite true.
The current gc hegemony worries me because I don't think you can be genuinely gender critical while maintaining ideas around femininity being a good thing for women and masculinity being a good thing for men. It seems contradictory which is why I was blathering about strategy earlier.
I think there are reasons why critique of gender roles has tended to come from lesbian feminists moreso than other groups.
Hence my worry that it feels less ok to post here as a lesbian than it used to.

But Overton window wise, I think society in general has become so much more accepting of right wing ideas than it was when fwr started up.
This section started then very quickly a tory government came in.
I remember reclaim the night had explicitly anti tory chants that year (written by Finn) but I think the momentum has been lost.
It's just gone on for so long.

I also think the party political left has done nothing to keep women on board for the past while. But to me, that doesn't change my core beliefs. Being party political is such a small aspect of being political, for me.

It seems like flawed logic to say 'Labour supports self ID so I don't like the left'. (I realise that's an over simplification).

I know plenty of labour party members who are very against self ID anyway.
I hope that Labour recovers.
But even if it doesn't, I will always be in favour of social democracy. I think poverty does so much harm and I think there are easy ways to structure welfare states to avoid that harm.

Oc, it wasn't so much the op of that thread as comments further down that were perturbing.