Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

And I don't mean fault - she didn't cause it, she didn't cause society's idea that boys can't wear dresses and girls can't play with trucks.

Aargh I DO think.

YANBU, OP. There’s the occasional pocket of feminist discussion left on here but mostly it’s just alt-right talking points. It’s not a left vs right issue - I’m always delighted to join forces with feminist conservatives. It’s about the influx of a certain type of poster who clearly doesn’t give a shit about feminism (as evidenced by the deflection and “whataboutery” any time an actual feminist issue comes up) but only about pursuing an “anti-woke”, anti-anti-racist, conspiracy theorist agenda. There’s nothing anyone can do about it - it’s an open forum. But I wish genuine feminist posters were a bit less naive - these people aren’t feminist allies, no matter how hard they’re pursuing an anti-trans agenda.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman. Such an eloquent post. Hit the nail on the head.

I personally think much of the feminism board leans left (which is alright). I’m politically a centrist in that I do not pick left or right and go with whatever that side says. I look at each issue individually and make my own assessment. This means on some things, I agree with the right and on others I agree with the left. I have not found any party or side that is 100% correct all the time. So I’m more of a centrist and vote for candidates independent of their party.
I agree especially with where you write that all parties seem to pay lip service to women’s rights. They seem to say whatever is popular simply to secure votes. Once they’ve won the election, nothing seems to happen.

I'm WC to my very core and the Left has never done anything for me. I read but post rarely on these boards as I do find them patronising and dismissive of the center and right wing. The concept that Left is good and voting Right is against a WC women's interests is laughable.
The policies of the Left create benefit traps, excessive meddling in working practices mean women aren't welcome in many work places and our jobs aren't recognised. Under more centre and Right wing work, employment is valued and rewarded. The left needs it's women to be victims the Right expects us to be warriors.
These boards and Mumsnet are very Middle Class. For example many of my female self employed friends are in the beauty industry yet saw their work put bottom of the list recently. I didn't see many feminists fighting for them and these boards were silent on the unfair treatment of an industry dominated by females, worth a sizeable proportion of GDP and discriminated against.

There's a Facebook group.. . Who have recently noticed they've been infiltrated by people trying to sow seeds of division...

The problem is that it is mostly the left who are conducting this witch hunt against women at the moment.

There's nowhere to go

I am left, but am digusted daily by the hostility from the left towards women's rights

No mans land. It's horrible.

@drspouse

I don't think that the narrative that mothers are responsible for their child's mental health is an insidious one which is preyed on by snake merchants of all varieties because it's true in the sense that our care for our children has been socialised into us and we are supposed to fix them. So we are told "feed your child fish oils" "pay for ABA" "trans them if they are unhappy". A working class NMW mum at my DCs school transed her child after, I have no doubt, looking for help on the internet and being pounced on by groomers. She was also socialised to help her child - while the child's dad was socialised that it's the mum's job to put this right, and no child of mine will be gay etc etc. This doesn't mean I blame the mum - it's not her fault her child is probably gay.

Thanks-I was trying to find the phrasing to say this. We don’t “blame mothers”, we acknowledge the societal expectation that familying is women’s work.

I don’t recognise the FWR you’re describing, BlackWave. I don’t think there’s loads of mother/blaming here, nor that it’s particularly right wing.

I’m like many here - left wing feminist left politically homeless by the self-Id nonsense of Labour, the Liberals and the Greens. Don’t even get me started of the horseshit that sex work is work.

I love the diverse experiences, views and sheer range of knowledge I read here. It makes me a better feminist. It’s also been key to my activism - for example joining the Greens this summer to vote for the most GC platform. Not much right wing in that, nor the protests against the Managed Zone in Leeds.

I'm a Communist Party of Britain member so I'm a bit more left wing that most, and I've always felt welcome here. There's a wide range of political opinion here, and we have dialectics by talking about them and hashing out what our points of view are so we can come to some consensus, or at least inform and learn from each other. We agree on enough that we can work together, that's just realpolitik. Even just agreeing that biological sex is real and has been and is the basis for discrimination against half the population gives us a lot of common ground. I don't think we gain anything by being insular or not talking to right wingers; people gave WoLF a lot of hassle for talking to the Heritage Foundation, but you know what, they didn't give any ground or betray any of their principles, and they got the Heritage Foundation of all people to listen to lesbians, feminists and detransitioners! That's how we win people over and it's a problem in neoliberalism that seems to be imposed from the top, this idea that you don't talk to "the enemy". I think that only serves to separate us and undermine our organising with people with whom we have common cause.
Though if you want purely left wing groups to discuss issues specific to left politics I can understand that, there's a few Marxist feminist groups on Facebook that are good for that.

I find it's a lot more common for right wing views to be expressed here than when fwr started up.
Moreover, when they're challenged it tends to result in sneering comments from other posters.
So it's harder to challenge than it was, I find.

I link it to the single issue stuff, and it's sad to me because I don't think you can strategise about how to challenge gender fascism without understanding feminist politics.

I don't want to be aligned with the right, not because it's icky but because I don't agree with neoliberal individualism.

I also find there's a lot of homophobic tinges to comments eg a thread defending someone who is against kids learning about gay relationships.

I think that genderism is outside of the usual socialist/social conservative divide. That's why people from both sides can oppose it.

There's going to be differences. Both radical feminists and conservatives see gender as a social construct that doesn't itself define whether someone is male, female, both or neither. But radical feminists think that people should be free to act outside of gender norms (without this influencing whether they ARE male or female) while conservatives think they should stay within them.

Despite those differences, there are many things feminists and conservatives can agree on. For example, the idea that kids can self-diagnose as 'being a different gender' and then move on to hormone treatment and surgery. Or the aggressive suppression of free speech (there is a danger that this side of the debate can take over, because it blocks everything else). Or the idea that a male person can 'identify' into women's sports, refuges, prisons and changing rooms. Or the damage to families as seen evidenced here on the transwidows thread.

Most of what currently calls itself the left - the liberal, rather than the socialist side - has enforced an unconditional acceptance of genderism. That has created an overlap between feminists and conservatives on this issue, which is used by genderists against feminists. I think so long as people remain aware of what they stand for politically, and know when to draw a line, we can get through this.

I also find there's a lot of homophobic tinges to comments eg a thread defending someone who is against kids learning about gay relationships

I don't recognise this, maybe I have missed some threads. Could you link to where people have defended objections to teaching about same sex relationships.

I also find there's a lot of homophobic tinges to comments eg a thread defending someone who is against kids learning about gay relationships I can't find the thread but it was to do with a religious woman at employment tribunal and I think there was homophobia and transphobia. I made a comment on the thread.

The problem comes from a cross between women's rights and anything that looks as though it's supporting the case. I think it's too easy to assume because someone is against TWAW that they are automatically 'on our side' and jumping to their defence without thinking whether it has tipped over into Phobia.

I support women's rights to my core, I do not support Homo/trans/any other phobia

My own feeling is that many here are leftists or centrists but in a position where right wing policies (economic and social) won't affect them too adversely.

@Goosefoot

The traditional left wing is socially conservative, so I'm not sure t's clear what you are looking for.

I would say that what you are seeing is in part a realignment of feminist thought, or maybe a sort of refining. Certain elements that were generally assumed or just seen as natural bedfellows are being re-examined in light of where they have led, some of those things were criticised by social conservatives all along so there is now this interest in looking at those arguments again, trying to see what was missed, and why, and excising what was toxic. And then there are spaces for new thinking.

Free speech and examination of orthodoxies is one area where a lot of feminist though had become weak and it's become evident how dangerous that was in the last 10 years, how vulnerable it became. So it makes sense that it's become very much of interest and that as a result many feminists are looking at other assumed truths of feminism with a more critical eye. You hear women here every week saying that they used to consider themselves good leftist progressives but now realise they were simply going along with whatever was supposedly the correct way to think.

All ideologies go through periods like this and they can be really invigorating for them. And if they don't, they degenerate.

Agree completely with this.

@SuperLoudPoppingAction

I find it's a lot more common for right wing views to be expressed here than when fwr started up. Moreover, when they're challenged it tends to result in sneering comments from other posters. So it's harder to challenge than it was, I find.

I link it to the single issue stuff, and it's sad to me because I don't think you can strategise about how to challenge gender fascism without understanding feminist politics.

I don't want to be aligned with the right, not because it's icky but because I don't agree with neoliberal individualism.

I also find there's a lot of homophobic tinges to comments eg a thread defending someone who is against kids learning about gay relationships.

Yeah, this.

And honestly, I was not noticing it, say, 3 months ago. I always felt very secure defending FWR from the charges levelled at it; I don't feel as secure lately.

On balance, it's still ok, but I know for a fact ppl post here who are anti-marriage equality, for example.

@Kljnmw3459

My own feeling is that many here are leftists or centrists but in a position where right wing policies (economic and social) won't affect them too adversely.

Yes, that is my perception also.

The one about the woman being sacked for homophobic comments (having read more it seems pretty clear they were exactly that) is this one. Curious title perhaps....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4044598-No-Comment

And the other thread referred to is presumably this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4044414-Children-identifying-to-feel-special

I'm glad to hear ppls perceptions, both similar and different to my own.

Contrary to several suggestions, I'm a good faith poster with an appreciation for FWR, just troubled by a shift I've noticed (and which some others, it turns out, have noticed too).

Thanks to the poster who suggested finding a Marxist feminist group on FB. Might be more my speed at this time.

I think that the left has got itself a bit tied up with identity politics of late - the TWAW stuff is just the best illustration of it. I think that is probably pushing some people on here to reject that and therefore throw out the option of voting for the left. I know I have - I spoiled my ballot last time around because I couldn't face voting for anyone. (I also didn't feel able to vote for a party that seemed to embrace some very nasty people (anti Semitic, despotic "socialist" regimes), but I am hopeful that this is changing.)

Personally I don't like either stream of politics at the moment. I do think that we as gender critical women probably only have one chance to keep at bay some of the worst parts of TWAW - eradication of single sex spaces (for me, I would welcome post op TW, just not those who say they are woman without transitioning, though this is obviously a live debate) and giving puberty blockers to autistic teenage girls with scant counselling or mental health support. I suspect that strongly supporting what i feel is a resistance movement at the moment probably means many women on here having to embrace politics that are not ideal in other ways.

If you fancy a listen, this is quite even handed in terms of some of the problems of our current system. Nothing to do with gender politics btw - I really would like to move on from gender politics and talk about some of the big questions about how to rebuild our economy and society so that it works for all, but at the moment I don't feel that either party really offers very much vision on that, so maybe it is easier for lots of people who are a bit disillusioned like me to focus on the gender debate.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000mkv4

Thanks raspberry, will have a listen.

Feminism isn't on the radar of many working class women. They have too many other things to deal with. It wasn't for me until I got older and I'm still only a baby feminist (if one at all) as I am uneducated on the issue. Slowly trying to learn. I come from a very working class background although people looking at me now would assume I'm middle class as I earn good money and own my own house. Pure luck on my part as I left school at 16 with average qualifications. I have only ever voted Labour. I'm politically homeless now.

Can anyone hazard a guess as to the point of this thread?