No Comment

[Gottalife]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-54448646

Well yes, but those consequences should a cogent (and respectful) argument as to how your views are wrong

That's all well and good if the person is still open to a respectful argument as you say, or having their opinion disagreed with.
Not so easy as that though if they're "too far gone" for want of a better phrase.

I have a problem with the language around all relationships being equally valid, no matter what type of relationships people are referring to specifically, the principle is simply wrong. I also think "valid" is a weird word to use in that context and it's widely overused as a kind of signal for right-think.

But more generally, I have a problem with people's private views getting them fired from their job. I would place the bar for that sort of thing very very high and a private FB page wouldn't cut it. The relevance on FWR I suppose is that some of us are at risk of losing our jobs for other things we might want to be free to say on FB.

Oh lord fucking jesus

For NiceGerbil

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/23/sex-married-heterosexual-couples-church-of-england-christians

Remember that female officer who didn't get a job because she said biological sex was important? Or the woman who worked for a publishing firm who held GC views?

Yes, I do. Unfortunately the ethos of some organisations has become antithetical to many feminists. So, some women speak out and may have their day(s) in court too.

If we consider the religious aspect in reverse - if a teacher got a job in a faith school, and then went on SM saying religion was all a load of crap, do you think there would be no consequence?

I don’t share her views on same-sex relationships or same-marriage but I’m not offended by them at all. But I am in agreement with her about having very young children in primary schools being acquainted with the notion

I'm not gay, I'm your very "traditional" family people would probably "approve" of
(ie got married to my husband, had children, neither have children outside of marriage)
Man and wife having kids after marriage.
Why is it OK to know about us, but to not let children know that having two mums, or two dads instead is OK?
That's all very section 28 you're advocating for there, you're entitled to your views of course but how is it healthy to try and hide gay relationships as if they're something kids shouldn't know about?

I would place the bar for that sort of thing very very high and a private FB page wouldn't cut it

Erm.... FB isn't private.
Even if you lock down all your settings to just the people you accept on there as friends.
It's still published in the public domain.

No-one said anything about hiding same-sex relationships from children. That’s a very different proposition from teaching children formally about them.

Child: Tommy has two mummies.
Adult: Some people do.
The End.

There is a divide between children seeing all kinds of things and knowing they are there and being taught to behave respectfully to all, and teaching them around the nature or ethics of those things specifically.

If we accept the principle that state schools can and should do the latter, we all need to accept that it is perfectly possible that at some point, if the public or certain sectors take a different view than we ourselves do, we will simply have to accept that being taught to our kids. Or remove them to some form of private education.

It's also arguable that all education will involve some of that kind of teaching, and the question is where to draw the line. But that doesn't make it a whole lot easier to decide where the state's views takes precedent over parent's views.

No-one said anything about hiding same-sex relationships from children. That’s a very different proposition from teaching children formally about them

OK, point taken
Why can't Tommy know that his family is OK too though?
Why should he grow up thinking it's something that shouldn't be?

@ErrolTheDragon

Remember that female officer who didn't get a job because she said biological sex was important? Or the woman who worked for a publishing firm who held GC views?

Yes, I do. Unfortunately the ethos of some organisations has become antithetical to many feminists. So, some women speak out and may have their day(s) in court too.

If we consider the religious aspect in reverse - if a teacher got a job in a faith school, and then went on SM saying religion was all a load of crap, do you think there would be no consequence?

Of course, there would be consequences but I'm unsure about the level of consequence. Gross misconduct?

In this case, she was talking "privately" about her son's faith school, wasn't she?

It's a difficult one. I don't agree with her views, but I also think she has a right to her views. I'm not a Christian but I do think sometimes they get the short end of the stick. I also wonder if the same thing would have happened if she had been from a different religion. Buts that's not relevant here.

@Quaagars

No-one said anything about hiding same-sex relationships from children. That’s a very different proposition from teaching children formally about them

OK, point taken
Why can't Tommy know that his family is OK too though?
Why should he grow up thinking it's something that shouldn't be?

Won't Tommy's parents tell him that? Just like parents in another family will tell their kids that their families are ok. Should the student who comes from a family which thinks differently be told his family isn't ok?

The problem is that there isn't actually a neutral position. It's not so obvious in a homogeneous society, but in a pluralistic one it becomes more and more obvious that there are different views about some basic issues, and if the state says one of those is ok, it pretty much implies the other isn't.

I suspect this conundrum is behind a lot of the increasing authoritarianism on the left.

Why can't Tommy know that his family is OK too though?
Where is Tommy getting the idea that his family isn’t okay? Families, family set-ups and living situations differ and always have, and kids, unless they live in a very closed off community, start learning very early about different family set-ups and living situations. Why, instead of learning as they go through life do they have to have lessons in a classroom?

Where is Tommy getting the idea that his family isn’t okay?

The fact that they can learn about heterosexual relationships, but some say homosexual relationships shouldn't be taught, shouldn't be mentioned to children?
Kids aren't daft - they pick up on stuff and attitudes around them.

Do they need to have family relationship classes in school at all? TBH I kind of think it's busywork for the most part. Children live with who they live with, but I send them to school at that age mainly to learn to read, write, do math. Art, music, and nature would also be great things for them to spend time on, or dancing or sports or knitting. They don't seem particularly competent at most of that.

• Where is Tommy getting the idea that his family isn’t okay?

From classmates who've been told by their parents or in Sunday school or wherever that anything other than heterosexual marriage is wrong, perhaps?

The CofE doesn't marry same sex couples, unless I've missed something huge.

It’s curious, isn’t it, that only about five minutes ago, there was a great deal of concern over plans of what to teach the very young about relationships, gender et cetera until Liz Truss and the DofE published their guidelines. This woman was sacked before that happened. What happened to her is what could have happened to any one of us expressing perfectly reasonable views on social media.

Let me remind you: she expressed her views to her 100 contacts on Facebook under her maiden name. In her place I would have deleted the whole bloody lot of them by now. It must be a truly horrible position to be in, not knowing who betrayed you.

@ErrolTheDragon

* Where is Tommy getting the idea that his family isn’t okay? *

From classmates who've been told by their parents or in Sunday school or wherever that anything other than heterosexual marriage is wrong, perhaps?

Exactly

@FloralBunting

The CofE doesn't marry same sex couples, unless I've missed something huge.

They're explicitly not allowed to by the law, aren't they? The government effectively cut the Gordian knot of their internal battles on this and sidelined them.

Some other Christian churches do marry gay couples (afaik URC and Quakers).

Let me remind you: she expressed her views to her 100 contacts on Facebook under her maiden name. In her place I would have deleted the whole bloody lot of them by now. It must be a truly horrible position to be in, not knowing who betrayed you.

The doxxing is nasty; two wrongs never did make a right.

Most of these evil religious parents aren’t going out of their way to introduce the concept of same-sex relationships to their young children so I really think you are overestimating the negative messages young Tommy is getting. It’s a very sensitive issue which many would rather avoid rather than risk being frozen out socially. Why do you think this thread is called, ‘No Comment’?

Most of these evil religious parents aren’t going out of their way to introduce the concept of same-sex relationships to their young children so I really think you are overestimating the negative messages young Tommy is getting

Who said they're evil?
No-one apart from yourself.
You're missing the point, yes we know that the parents aren't going out of the way to introduce the concept of same sex relationships.
Heterosexual relationships are default "the norm" and so that's what people see if that's what they've only ever known.
Why is it wrong for children to know it's OK to be gay too?

@Goosefoot

I have a problem with the language around all relationships being equally valid, no matter what type of relationships people are referring to specifically, the principle is simply wrong. I also think "valid" is a weird word to use in that context and it's widely overused as a kind of signal for right-think.

But more generally, I have a problem with people's private views getting them fired from their job. I would place the bar for that sort of thing very very high and a private FB page wouldn't cut it. The relevance on FWR I suppose is that some of us are at risk of losing our jobs for other things we might want to be free to say on FB.

I couldn't sleep last night and oddly what you have posted is pretty much a post I'd formulated in the middle of the night but didn't post. I particularly was thinking that "valid" is a very odd word in this context.

No, I don't agree that this woman was sacked on the basis of two FB posts (if that's the case I'm in trouble for all the GC stuff I've posted on my FB page, although my last one was standing up for lesbians, so I can't be accused of homophobia.) If she's bringing this stuff into the classroom then it's different. The church that I go to is very anti gay/anti trans, (being gay is wrong, no one should ever transition and I don't agree with that) so I have to square that with my own views, but I can understand deeply held beliefs like that. I'm assuming if someone said she was brainwashed no one would bat an eyelid.