Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

[Malahaha]

I don't think this is a share token. Still haven't mastered the art.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chemist-sells-hormones-for-trans-children-online-cbgtxlbdr?fbclid=IwAR0ocQdGvaFBfucRwkSlnanlQlhiOi6eH8X3uVprlH7fj8Y-WOSCdoXeOSY

@MadBadDaddy

I was a client of GGP, so I know all of that, thanks. Your quibbling doesn't affect my point.

My point being that, like back-street abortions, the demand will be met by a supply. Any teenager with a credit card and an internet connection will do whatever they feel they need to do with no oversight whatsoever. The concerted, well-resourced attacks on all trans healthcare will put people into more risk, not less.

What is your answer to this? Just let people like Webberly continue on? Webberlys situation IS kind of like 'back street abortion' anyway, as people are instead of going the proper route, are dealing with someone who has already had her license suspended, just because she given out pills like smarties seemingly. That really shouldn't be seen as a good thing, having a 'GP' willing to do things like this

Its not only trans healthcare thats slow as fuck unfortunately. The answer is certainly not a suspended doctor giving out powerful drugs to make herself a bit cash and skirt the law in any way she thinks of. Times need sorted all over the NHS, not just gender issues, but obviously including that.

I also do not consider the inquiry into the Tavistocks practices as an 'attack'. An inquiry to make sure treatments and such are the correct ones and that the establishment is following the rules is not an attack at all. It should actually be seen as a good thing IMO..as it will improve trans healthcare if something is happening that shouldn't be and this is stopped. If nothing is untoward or anything, then nothing changes.

@MadBadDaddy

I was a client of GGP, so I know all of that, thanks. Your quibbling doesn't affect my point.

My point being that, like back-street abortions, the demand will be met by a supply. Any teenager with a credit card and an internet connection will do whatever they feel they need to do with no oversight whatsoever. The concerted, well-resourced attacks on all trans healthcare will put people into more risk, not less.

Maybe the problem is that trans health needs research and counselling not just drugs and big pharma.

Maybe the risk is all these people pumping themselves full of drugs that don't ultimately solve their problems...

...reading the detail of the current court case involving the Tavistock certainly raises the qestion of just how much (or how little) evidence based medicine is going on.

Maybe whats happening with people getting hooked on these prescription drugs has more in common with the US opiods crisis that a comparison with back street abortions where big pharma is out to make big money rather than the welling being of patients being the focus of the problem...

I find it interesting that so many trans people are outraged that a black market source of pills has been shut down, and that there is a court case about the poor standard of trans healthcare.

I would have expected trans people to be pleased that dodgy doctors taking advantage of their condition were being questioned? Surely trans people don't actually want healthcare that is poorer and less safe than that given to other people.

Maybe whats happening with people getting hooked on these prescription drugs has more in common with the US opiods crisis that a comparison with back street abortions where big pharma is out to make big money rather than the welling being of patients being the focus of the problem...

This is a good point.

There are dodgy online pharmacies selling opioids to addicts in the UK, too. I suppose we should think that's fine because those people aren't buying smack from dealers?

If we're running with the abortion analogy, it still doesn't work, since Gender GP actually is one of the back-alley abortionists of the trans-health world.

Doctors STRUCK OFF for professional misconduct and failure to observe medical ethics are not heroes.

Equally people who support medical ethics and the principles of 'do no harm' and evidence based medicine when prescriptions are issued are not trying to harm anyone nor are they evil or nasty 'haters'.

Quite the opposite. The people who care about addicts are not their dealers. Dealers might act like best buddies and give out freebies to get a vulnerable new client hooked, but they sure as hell aren't friends.

Its the money they are interested in not well being.

If victims of a STRUCK OFF doctor can't see this, it does kind of show the problem pretty well.

@MadBadDaddy

The urge to reply sarcastically to the idea of being reassured by a "government pledge" is pretty overwhelming, I don't mind telling you.

Given the state of the country/world right now, I don't see the waiting lists significantly reducing anytime soon. People who are desperate and suffering will go wherever they need to, 'bloody dangerous' or not. I know many people on this site and elsewhere would say '"well, fuck 'em then" but I like to think that others wouldn't be so callous.

BTW, the '3 new clinics' aren't new at all, despite Truss saying so. Also, Webberly doesn't practice anywhere, and GGP don't sell hormones.

Oh spare me the predictable volte face as soon as transactivists get what they pretended they were asking for.

You want more clinics? you've been told you'll get more clinics. If you don't believe it, take it up with Liz Truss.

Given the state of the country/world right now, I don't see the waiting lists significantly reducing anytime soon

They'll reduc all right. As soon as schools nationwide start abiding by the government advice to stop teaching gender ideology, stop no platforming people who object to it, and demand an evidence base for all of it, certainly the children queueing up at gender clinics will plummet.

Pharmacies in the UK need to be sure that the prescriptions they fill have been issued in accordance to UK prescribing guidelines. Clear Chemist now obviously have concerns about the prescriptions issued by GenderGP. If there is no problem and GenderGP are issuing prescriptions within U.K. prescribing guidelines I’m sure this will all be cleared up very quickly as a big misunderstanding.

However, according to the article previously linked to by another poster: www.independentpharmacist.co.uk/644618-gphc-to-look-into-concerns-over-hormone-scripts-to-pharmacies there would appear to be , IMO, valid concerns:

“However, concerns have been raised that the services offered by GenderGP, which is owned by Harland International Ltd, a company registered in Hong Kong, circumvent the checks and safeguards required by NHS clinics before approving treatment to help children transition.
While children going through NHS services undergo a multi-step assessment including a GP referral, therapy sessions and meeting with an endocrinology team, it appears GenderGP's only mandatory requirement are information gathering sessions conducted by video link.”

I don’t know why anyone would argue that puberty blocker and cross sex hormone prescriptions to adolescents should fall outwith UK prescribing guidelines and if there are concerns, they should be investigated.

My point being that, like back-street abortions, the demand will be met by a supply. Any teenager with a credit card and an internet connection will do whatever they feel they need to do with no oversight whatsoever. The concerted, well-resourced attacks on all trans healthcare will put people into more risk, not less.

But.... This is already dodgy as fuck? Unethical, not properly regulated, run by a doctor who has been suspended due to their conduct? The 'back-street abortions' are already happening?

You guys sound a lot like anti abortion activists using the stories of poor souls who have regretted their decisions to oppose bodily autonomy for anyone seeking an abortion.

Keira Bell's story is tragic. As she says, she was determined to go along a particular path, and it must be horrific to have such regrets now. People at 16 make lots of decisions that they later regret, eg to have or to not have a baby. What to study at uni. Whether to or not have chemotherapy for cancer. These all have life ramifications. We should be supporting education to help teenagers, and adults, have the reasoning and critical thinking skills to help them figure out what is best for them.

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier.

To take the cancer treatment example - chemotherapy can save lives, but also often has horrific side effects. For some people it has negative effects (i'm a nurse, I've seen it too often both in professional and personal capacity) in that it did not stop their cancer, but did impact the quality of the life they had remaining. To decide whether or not to have chemotherapy is not a straightforward decision based purely in survival rates. It has to be the decision of the patient themselves. And yes, they might come to regret it. The chemotherapy most definitely will have done harm to them. In a majority of cases, thankfully, the person will benefit overall because they will survive. But to take away that opportunity because for a minority it was the wrong decision? That would be immoral.

Yes everyone, however old, should be given assistance in making the right decision for themselves. We need more funding for trans services so that there is plenty of support for those who need it.

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt

My point being that, like back-street abortions, the demand will be met by a supply. Any teenager with a credit card and an internet connection will do whatever they feel they need to do with no oversight whatsoever. The concerted, well-resourced attacks on all trans healthcare will put people into more risk, not less.

But.... This is already dodgy as fuck? Unethical, not properly regulated, run by a doctor who has been suspended due to their conduct? The 'back-street abortions' are already happening?

I know.

It's such projection.

Closing down the ' backstreet abortions' In order to promote the healthy, accountable, sanctioned ones.

The question is, who advocates for backstreet medical treatment, over upfront, NHS treatment??

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier.

Can you post a link to these statistics?

It is indeed closing the 'back street' clinic.

The trouble is no one likes to jump through hoops - the back street don't ask awkward questions and give you what you want, when you want it - even if it turns out bad.

I mean, why even bother with regulating healthcare.

They'll reduc all right. As soon as schools nationwide start abiding by the government advice to stop teaching gender ideology, stop no platforming people who object to it, and demand an evidence base for all of it, certainly the children queueing up at gender clinics will plummet.

I agree. Let's give that a go, and invest in better mental health care.

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier.

When you say 'earlier' how 'early' are we talking here?

@Melroses

It is indeed closing the 'back street' clinic.

The trouble is no one likes to jump through hoops - the back street don't ask awkward questions and give you what you want, when you want it - even if it turns out bad.

I know. It's telling that they can't see the parallels

@Datun
They'll reduc all right. As soon as schools nationwide start abiding by the government advice to stop teaching gender ideology, stop no platforming people who object to it, and demand an evidence base for all of it, certainly the children queueing up at gender clinics will plummet.

Did you know that the number of left handed people in the world has increased sevenfold in the last 100 years? Why do you think that is?

IIRC when the Swedish government recently ran an enquiry into the efficacy of puberty blockers, the demand fell by 65% in just 6 months.

If the same thing happens here in response to Keira's case then there will hardly be queues for trans services. If anything those extra three proposed clinics may well be redundant.

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier. Alex I'll ask but I don't want you to be offended I'm just very interested.

When you say you would have benefitted from transitioning earlier, are you unhappy with your transition?

Gender GP is grey market, not black market. The black market already exists, and my original post was about how terrible it would be if that was all there was. You all ignored that, but that what you are supporting.

And describing hormones as 'addictive' is ludicrous. I'm sure there are more than one or two women here on HRT. Are you addicted? I'm taking exactly the same medicine as you are, and probably at the same dose.

@OldCrone

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier.

Can you post a link to these statistics?

Yes I’d like to see that evidence too. The American Journal of Psychiatry had to issue a retraction after a study falsely claimed that affirmative medical treatments help trans people when the paper’s data actually said they didn’t.

It’s clear there is a large cohort of people all around the world who have been administered affirmative medical treatments despite there being no evidence at the time that they helped, and now with emerging evidence that they do not. Irreparable harm has been done as a result - infertility, poor sexual function, long term cardiovascular risk and so on.

It is NOT the fault of posters on Mumsnet FWR.

It’s not OUR fault that you have been subjected to this poor quality, poor evidence based therapy done over the Internet.

It’s not OUR fault that no one told you the treatments have been experimental.

It’s not OUR fault that no one told you they were being prescribed and administered outside of the normal regulatory processes.

It’s not OUR pleasure that this has happened to children.

It IS our relief that maybe, just maybe, this will prevent more irreparable and irreversible harm will be done.

This anger needs to be directed at the right people: the doctors who sold you - both the idea and the drugs - medications that they led you to believe were the answer, in a manner not befitting modern day high standard medical practice.

I agreee Eresh, invest in better mental health care this has got to be the highest priority. Really listening to and working with children to help them cope with adolescence. Help them realise that their bodies will change as they mature and that's fine.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I mean, why even bother with regulating healthcare.

Calling it healthcare is a massive con.

[quote MadBadDaddy]@Datun
They'll reduc all right. As soon as schools nationwide start abiding by the government advice to stop teaching gender ideology, stop no platforming people who object to it, and demand an evidence base for all of it, certainly the children queueing up at gender clinics will plummet.

Did you know that the number of left handed people in the world has increased sevenfold in the last 100 years? Why do you think that is?[/quote]
Are people literally 'born in the wrong body'?