Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

262 replies

Malahaha · 06/10/2020 09:46

I don't think this is a share token. Still haven't mastered the art.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chemist-sells-hormones-for-trans-children-online-cbgtxlbdr?fbclid=IwAR0ocQdGvaFBfucRwkSlnanlQlhiOi6eH8X3uVprlH7fj8Y-WOSCdoXeOSY

OP posts:
Winesalot · 09/10/2020 22:52

Delaying access to treatment causes irreversible physical damage

That was in response to RedToothBrush and what GenderGP posted.

NRatched · 09/10/2020 22:53

the NHS even. My keyboard hates me recently it seems Hmm

Winesalot · 09/10/2020 22:54

, from the studies (granted not read them all and not too many overall), but from what I've read there is no evidence that lifespan is shortened. Hormones are natural part of life at the end of day even if they go against your birth sex. Even less complications earlier in life. In fact, there's a good chance that going Male to Female might even increase life expectancy in the same way as CIS. but that really is speculation and obviously only applied on an average scale

Perhaps look up the risks for taking testosterone for females.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:00

Its funny how adult transitioners who didn't go on puberty blockers and went through puberty and have no experience of puberty blockers and their side affects advocate and want children they know nothing about and don't know to be put on puberty blockers.

Is that about the wishes and desires of the adults?

Or about the health and welfare of the child?

We can see it being dressed as the latter, but in seeing the risks being twisted, lied about and dismissed and there being a complete lack of evidence about the benefit to children, we see this advocacy for what its about.

The adult transitioner and what they wish they could have done - not the real version though - the fantasy version.

Fardalen · 09/10/2020 23:03

@RedToothBrush

Puberty goes in the wrong direction and provides 'markers' that will follow you forever.

You have a choice of either no puberty or puberty. No puberty isn't 'going in the right direction'.

I'd like to read these studies saying all these things to expand my reading. Could you name them or link them please?

Been a while since I read these. Guess I'll have to back peddle a bit on the way I used the information. But as I said they were just examples and you should be able to see where I was coming from. Not 'transactivist'. Just got interested in the talk here and tried to add a perspective from the other side. Most of my study talk was questionable though Grin. But you hopefully can at least see what I was getting at.

Study on Bone mass not density. My bad.: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469959/

aaand this study talks about long term treatment near the bottom. This isn't the one I was thinking of but I did this research for myself some time ago and can't find it at this very minute. But yeah, biggest problem is suicide rates. Aint an easy route to take with the abuse you might get but there it is.
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0004563215587763

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:05

Was hoping to vent a little and ended up trying to help add some information as to why some are using the service for their children.

Interesting wording.

Implies parents are doing it to children and children are passive and doing what they are told rather than free to make more informed choices where safeguarding checks they are not being pressured nor abused.

Aesopfable · 09/10/2020 23:10

Hormones are natural

I see this so often in a context that natural = good
Cyanide is natural
Deathcap mushrooms are natural
Uranium and asbestos are natural
Death is natural

However, Cross sex hormones are not natural.

Fardalen · 09/10/2020 23:12

Okay, now i've stepped too far into trying to convince you now sorry. Like I said multiple times, I only wanted to describe a little of why some people use a service such as this. I wasn't trying to tell you they were right and that the worried parents on here were wrong. Though I have enjoyed some of the interesting challenges that have been put to me. Got a little wrapped up in it and now quoting research I'm not qualified to dissect. Probably made it worse Grin. Have a nice night and a happy healthy life for all and your children.

NRatched · 09/10/2020 23:13

In fact, there's a good chance that going Male to Female might even increase life expectancy in the same way as CIS. but that really is speculation and obviously only applied on an average scale.

Is this actually correct? Would genuinely love to read a bit about that, if you have links to hand (dont expect you t find them if it was just an off cuff remark or something though!). I can believe it I think, even without proof, not sure why though but it sounds plausible. I do know for FtM its unlikely to be such a 'happy story' healthwise though. The damage done to the female body by extra testosterone is not good from what I have seen. But MtF, can definitely believe it might nt be as harsh and might possibly be 'better' in some ways.

Still, even though that interests me, my concern is and always will be for kids being set on this pathway for seemingly little reason bar how they will look when older if they do turn out to be trans. And IMO, being potentially more masculine/feminine looking as an adult IF it is the right thing for you to transition, is not worth playing russian roulette with health. It will of course turn out to be the correct 'treatment' for some kids, I suspect a minority. But, how much collateral damage is acceptable really, when it is basically health V appearance?

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:17

Keeping in mind that most children transitioning are female:

There is an increase in ovarian stromal tissue and cyst formation identical to the changes seen in polycystic ovarian syndrome. These changes occur after six months of therapy; their significance is unclear.

So not studied.

Testosterone induces the production of erythropoietin and so increases the production of red blood cells. Testosterone replacement therapy can be associated with polycythaemia and this increase in blood viscosity can lead to an increased incidence of stroke in those who have a haematocrit above 48%. This can occur even in young subjects; both stroke and myocardial infarction have been reported in anabolic steroid abusers.

The development of polycythaemia is more common with injectable forms of testosterone suggesting that the length of time that the testosterone concentration is supraphysiological is important in this effect. There are no reports on the incidence of polycythaemia in transmen receiving testosterone treatment in the current literature.

We've not studied this either.

Liver dysfunction and even fulminant hepatic failure have been reported as side-effects of testosterone therapy. This was, however, seen when alkylated anabolic steroid was used especially in the context of drugs of abuse by body builders and athletes. A very high incidence of liver dysfunction at 32% was reported when these compounds were used in transmen. Current treatment protocols do not use these anabolic steroids for testosterone replacement therapy.

There has been one series reporting the incidence of hepatic dysfunction in transmen treated with modern testosterone replacement therapy that reported the incidence of transient liver dysfunction (6 months) in 6.8%.28 It is commented in that report that no subject had liver enzyme dysfunction of more than 2.5 times the upper limit of normal; we can infer from that finding, that the disturbance was not great enough to merit cessation of therapy. Routine monitoring of the liver function in patients on testosterone replacement is recommended

6.8% risk. And 'infer'? infer??! as in we've guessed and not really studied properly infer?

Testosterone if used in excess, such as steroid abuse in athletes, increases insulin resistance; it had therefore been assumed that the high doses used in the masculinization of transmen would lead to an increase in insulin resistance. This does not appear to happen; in the only published study on this topic, insulin resistance did not change following one year of testosterone treatment

'This does not appear to happen; in the only published study on this topic, insulin resistance did not change following one year of testosterone treatment'. Erm what kind of science is this where we say this does not happen on the basis of a single year long study.

I was going to look through the whole report and comment, but I think I'll rest my case on this 'study' being not worth the paper its written on.

Thanks.

NRatched · 09/10/2020 23:17

Also by 'correct treatment for some kids' I mean, they would actually grow up to be transsexual. And transition might then be the best option. So potentially it may have been 'a good thing' if they started younger, but is the risk worth it for less of an adams apple, really? When the vast majority of kids seem to 'grow out of' 'gender confusion' and seem to mainly turn out to be simp,y gay adults, rather than transsexual.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:20

A small study reported a high risk of endometrial hyperplasia in transmen at 15%; however, this risk is probably overstated as the findings of this study have not been repeated and the histological studies on the endometria of hysterectomy specimens taken from transmen consistently demonstrate endometrial atrophy. Monitoring of the endometrial thickness by ultrasound scanning biannually is currently recommended. It is usual practice to recommend hysterectomy after two years of testosterone therapy

'Probably overstated, but we can't be sure cos we've not really studied this either. Cos hmm... why is it again we make guesses and assumptions about the health of female organs??

umbel · 09/10/2020 23:20

^ gardenbird48

I am always up for considering the opposing points of view Fardalen but I can't help wondering in this case, if there hadn't been such a sustained recruitment drive from certain organisations over recent years. Followed by encouraging children (and adults) to self-diagnose into medical treatment without considering any alternative, there might not be such demand for the NHS services and then the current capacity would be acceptable.^

You’re right. Without the likes of Mermaids advising all and sundry to ‘get a referral to the Tavi organised now, in case you need it’, the waiting lists wouldn’t be in such a desperate state. Their push to get happy non-conforming kids with no dysphoria onto the medication pathway ASAP, no questions asked is....baffling?

NRatched · 09/10/2020 23:21

RedToothBrush

Jesus

We don't know

We don't care

We didn't bother checking really

Its only females.

Depressing as fuck.

Fardalen · 09/10/2020 23:22

@RedToothBrush

Was hoping to vent a little and ended up trying to help add some information as to why some are using the service for their children.

Interesting wording.

Implies parents are doing it to children and children are passive and doing what they are told rather than free to make more informed choices where safeguarding checks they are not being pressured nor abused.

I made the mistake of refreshing my page: Yeah, there's no hidden meaning in anything I'm trying to say. Each decision should absolutely be what is best for both individual child and parent. 3 Weeks is too short. Not enough studies done. NHS too flooded on all front. Closing browser now or i'll just keep going.

I can't find the study about lifespan but you might be interested in: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512213000121. Especially fact 2 about levels of testosterone in Women. Not sure where this article gets it's info but I use the site a lot for reliable articles for uni.

I also missed a post about orgasms. I'm not sure about F2M, but I know for a fact it's possible for M2F. Smile

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:23

Also both studies are about cross sex hormones.

Not puberty blockers. So we don't know how there might be consequences from taking puberty blockers that might be a serious consideration when it comes to children.

We also don't know what happens to children who take puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones and whether that causes unique issues.

Which is kind of important.

Winesalot · 09/10/2020 23:25

I remember reading about the health of one of the Soviet era female olympians in an Eastern European country. Maybe a swimmer come to think of it. They were told that to compete they had to take supplements (which were testosterone) and the effects later in life were debilitating. I believe in her case, she was not told what it was that she was even taking.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:27

@NRatched

RedToothBrush

Jesus

We don't know

We don't care

We didn't bother checking really

Its only females.

Depressing as fuck.

Quite.

And this apparently passes as 'research'.

I'm not even being selective in my copying and pasting!

I am reading it thinking, 'is this some kind of sick joke?'

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:29

Each decision should absolutely be what is best for both individual child and parent.

Each individual child AND parent?

No. Its got fuck all to do with whats best for the parent. Its ONLY about whats best for the child...

Why is it anything to do with whats best for the parent? Why is that relevant at all?

Fardalen · 09/10/2020 23:31

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101
A post on + and - on Blockers for those interested. It tries to take a neutral stance. Basically boils down to 'we don't know' again though. So... won't really add anything to the discussion. But there if you're interested.

Aesopfable · 09/10/2020 23:32

Fardalen that study on bone density is of no relevance to the treatment of children as it deals purely with adults. There is a huge difference between the retention of bone mineral density in adults who have been through puberty, and preventing the build up of bone density during the stage in a child’s development during which it normally vastly increases. Puberty is crucial to increases bone density and delayed puberty decreases bone density. Decreased bone density is not a good thing.

Aesopfable · 09/10/2020 23:38

@Fardalen

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101 A post on + and - on Blockers for those interested. It tries to take a neutral stance. Basically boils down to 'we don't know' again though. So... won't really add anything to the discussion. But there if you're interested.
It is also a narrative review and therefore can be discounted as ‘evidence’
RedToothBrush · 09/10/2020 23:39

@Fardalen

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101 A post on + and - on Blockers for those interested. It tries to take a neutral stance. Basically boils down to 'we don't know' again though. So... won't really add anything to the discussion. But there if you're interested.
Don't you think thats kind of a problem if you are prescribing drugs to children as young as twelve in a way which isn't properly regulated by the NHS because its via an offshire service???

The fact we 'don't know' and you still think the service is good because you as an adult can get what you want but you haven't really given much thought as to the consequences for transmen or children and have provided studies which lack any evidence at all for these groups in 'proof' that theres no harm being done really isn't a great look.

I don't want to be confrontational about this, but can you see why I've got concerns here? Can't you?

We need better than this. This isn't good enough. We can't say this is a good outcome when we don't know what the outcomes are.

NRatched · 09/10/2020 23:40

Especially fact 2 about levels of testosterone in Women. Not sure where this article gets it's info but I use the site a lot for reliable articles for uni.

I wonder what that classes as 'masculization'?

2.3. Myth: Testosterone masculinizes females

Although pharmacologic doses of T and supra-pharmacological doses of T used to treat female to male transgender patients, may result in increased facial hair growth, hirsutism, and slight enlargement of the clitoris; true masculinization is not possible.

Of course it does not make you grow a penis or anything, but..the results I have seen on many many transmen can be quite 'impressive', if looking at aesthetics alone? This appears to be saying the only real difference is more facial hair and a bit bigger clit? I would disagree with this from evidence seem with my own eyes. It also states that deepening voice is a myth?! Again, I know only 2 transmen on T persoally but both of them had a voice drop moment, like teenage boys do.

The whole thing seems to be a bit of an excercise in 'no damage here' though, which is, patently untrue.


Basically boils down to 'we don't know' again though

Which is almost the entire problem. Its experimentations, but not even that as seemingly no followups occur so its not even able to be pushed as experiments to see whats actually best, just an endless experiment with no checks or balances?! There is quite a bit of evidence that lupron and such cause health issues in grown women, so why they would not affect children in such a way, I don't know.

No. Its got fuck all to do with whats best for the parent. Its ONLY about whats best for the child...

Quite, the parent shouldn't enter this at all, it should be ALL about whats best for the child/patient, surely?!

Winesalot · 09/10/2020 23:45

It also states that deepening voice is a myth?!

Well, obviously they haven’t talked with some of the female detransitioners then. The anecdotal evidence seems to be rather overwhelming in those coming off ‘t’.