Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

@OldCrone

Along with your definition of 'man' jj, can you also explain the difference between a man and a woman?

Do you agree with these dictionary definitions?

Man: Adult male human

Woman: Adult female human

Male: of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female

Female: of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs

You forgot this one:

Definition of trans woman

: a transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth

Problem with relying on dictionaries is they change.

If you need a dedicated definition entry for a two-word phrase, you can tell someone's been playing silly buggers, because it must have come unmoored from the meanings of the individual words.

(Or maybe you just can't actually define the individual words...)

@jj1968 - dictionary definitions may change but human beings can't change sex, however they identify

@OldCrone

What about a definition for 'man' now jj.

Man is the dominant political class under patriarchy into which those perceived to have the male sex or gender are placed.

Whats a male gender

Can you define that.

: a transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth

Using the above definition and the definition of a woman as adult human female then a transgender woman is an adult human female who was identified as male at birth.

That doesn't work does it? A male baby can't grow into an adult human female? I think you'll find the flaw is in your use of "woman" to mean someone who isn't a woman.

Problem with relying on dictionaries is they change.

Yes, unfortunately they sometimes add current usage even if it's oxymoronic idiocy like the second definition of 'literally' : used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible

Man is the dominant political class under patriarchy into which those perceived to have the male sex or gender are placed.

So you're agreeing that transwomen are men? Good.

@ErrolTheDragon

That MacKinnon quote is pretty clearly just a personal opinion, not a serious attempt at a meaningful definition.

Well yes. Perhaps that's because actual proper radical feminists spent a decade discussing what the word woman meant so she probably feels it is not quite as simple on some on here make out.

still waiting on the definitiom of a male gender and a female gender.

What are they?

Man is the dominant political class under patriarchy into which those perceived to have the male sex or gender are placed.

So, it seems you're an advocate of 'men' and 'non-men' position, given that there seems little evidence of transmen being admitted to this dominant class.

the word woman meant so she probably feels it is not quite as simple on some on here make out.

It's the people who weren't allowed to vote, were underpaid because of their sex, the ones who can't become priests,the ones who give birth.

Do you really struggle with this concept? I feel your pain if you actually don't even understand basic biology.

The word 'female' is clear. 'Woman' defined in terms of female is clear, and workable. Women are oppressed by gender being imposed on us.

transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth

You're nearly there. It's the male bit you need to focus on here. You can change her hair, have surgery, wear different clothes, but what's inside always remains the same. It's not possible to change sex. And as an aside, sex is observed at birth. Not asigned. Just like my baby scans clearly observed the sex of my children. It's a fact. Biological sex is not akin to Harry potter's magical sorting hat where the hat assigns what house he thinks students should go to based on their personalities.
Do you think the midwife stands there at the birth of a new child and says hmm, we've had too many boys born here today, let's assign this one as a girl. This one looks a bit girly. She can change her mind later if she doesn't agree 🙄

Anyway I've gven my definition, I'm not going to change my mind so see little point endlessly arguing about it.

I think this is a very disingenuous thing to say.

Perhaps instead you could agree to discuss it for a short while?

People could reasonably infer that your reluctance to discuss what you think about this is because you know that it doesn't really make sense.

And that McKinnon quote -

You could replace the word "woman" with any other word and it still wouldn't make any sense.

Funny how women, who have a vested interest in the definition of woman being clear, are willing to explain, argue and defend this for as long as necessary.

@CharlieParley

It comes down to you saying you believe trans people are a big enough threat to exclude them from single sex spaces as a default,

No, it comes down to us saying the male sex class is a big enough threat to exclude them from single-sex spaces provided for the female sex class.

This is why we have female-only spaces in the first place.

We are not arguing to exclude males who identify as trans from female-only spaces because they are trans but we are arguing to exclude males who identify as trans because they are male.

So, to repeat, we are defending the existing legal right for female people in the UK to female-only spaces, from which all male people are excluded regardless of their identity (and not spaces from which all people who identify as trans are excluded regardless of their sex as you claim).

I hope this helps you argue with our actual position and not the strawman you inadvertently presented there.

and me saying that I don't feel this way because I believe that they aren't as much of a threat stated and that pragmatically excluding them from certain women's spaces (like toilets) as a default is far more likely to harm them than it is going to save women from any harm/embarrassment etc.

Now that you (hopefully) understand what our actual position is, would you like to rephrase the rest of your comment so that we may engage on the basis of the real argument?

I'm quoting this because jj appears to have missed it and I think it would be helpful to jj.

@testing987654321

Funny how women, who have a vested interest in the definition of woman being clear, are willing to explain, argue and defend this for as long as necessary.

Reminds me of old school trots endlessly debating in back rooms who qualifies as working class whilst actual working class people were out on the front line fighting for their rights.

So humour us.

What's this male and female gender thing. When we "perceive " someone to be of a certain gender to lump them in the appropriate political class. What are we looking at

What's a female gender?

*You want us to base laws on something that could apply to anyone, just on their say so?

That's not how laws or definitions work.*

Oh yes it is. Sexuality, religion and gender reassignment are all self defined in law for a start, how could they be anything else.

@Whatwouldscullydo

So humour us.

What's this male and female gender thing. When we "perceive " someone to be of a certain gender to lump them in the appropriate political class. What are we looking at

What's a female gender?

If you want to start a thread on the nature of gender why not do that, it feels a bit like the toilets discussion has run its course anyway.

So you are not going to define the key point of your definition?

Ok...

I mean definitions have to working people have to understand them. Circular definitions that use words you cant define to define them just don't work do they.

Sex isn't self defined though and transwomen are still male.

Oh, shame, I was looking forward to hearing your definition jj. I've been hoping to hear one that makes sense for a good couple of years.