Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

@Datun

Getting an answer to that ^ would be a first.

Woman is a political class into which those perceived to have the female sex or gender are placed.

More pragmatically, to quote MacKinnon "Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I'm concerned, is a woman."

What's a female gender though?

You cant identify as something you cant define and if female isn't dependent on sex then what is it dependant. Can you define it without stereotypes

But why would women be a political class separate from men? Would it have something to do with them possessing the means of production that males don't? Hmm, such strangeness. Why have a political class for people who like to have long hair and wear sparkly clothes?

What the hell does "going around being a woman" even mean? If you're quoting cyclepath you really are scraping the proverbial barrel

Woman is a political class into which those perceived to have the female sex or gender are placed.

Is there any other political class which should be purely based on 'perception'? Let alone of something itself as nebulous as 'gender'?

What a load of useless rot.

More pragmatically, to quote MacKinnon "Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I'm concerned, is a woman."

That's only 'pragmatic' if you're a male who wants to appropriate being a woman. It's not in the least pragmatic if you actually are a woman (adult human female)

Woman is a political class into which those perceived to have the female sex or gender are placed.

Perceived to have 😂 bahahaha, you’re hilarious. Good one.

What an excellent “definition” with which to construct laws. Jeezo I’m embarrassed for you.

In all seriousness though, thank you for giving us your definition. Hopefully opens some lurkers eyes to the lunacy.

More pragmatically, to quote MacKinnon "Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I'm concerned, is a woman."

So, "pragmatically" in your words it's absolutely anybody.

You want us to base laws on something that could apply to anyone, just on their say so?

That's not how laws or definitions work.

Maybe, given the original topic of the thread, try applying the same 'logic' to disability and see how that pans out?

Quoting Mackinnon 😂😂😂 You’re not even trying now jj

It is telling that when jj is asked to provide a definition of a man, they instead suggest one for women.

@AmericanSlang

What the hell does "going around being a woman" even mean? If you're quoting cyclepath you really are scraping the proverbial barrel

The fact you immediately assumed I was quoting some gobby unknown cyclist and not one of the most important Feminist thinkers of the 20th Century is really quite telling.

Anyway I've gven my definition, I'm not going to change my mind so see little point endlessly arguing about it. I'm far more interested in the practicalities of how this conflict can be resolved.

Yes but your definition fails to define a key point.

Whats a female gender? How do you know you have one if you haven't even defined what it is.

jj was quoting Catharine MacKinnon, who seems to believe TWAW.

oncenturyavenue.org/2015/03/harm-is-harm-hello/

What about a definition for 'man' now jj.

@CharlieParley

It has, from its inception, misrepresented how the sex-based exemptions work in relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Because it consulted only trans rights organisations in drawing up the relevant statutory guidance

If you honestly believe that both the EHRC and Liz Truss' Office are prepared to go to court to defend their interpretation of the act because they were brainwashed by a couple of trans activists a decade ago and not because they are acting on professional legal opinion then you're back into conspiracy theory for me I'm afraid.

@Aesopfable

It is telling that when jj is asked to provide a definition of a man, they instead suggest one for women.

Indeed😂

This thread just demonstrates why women have to fight to retain the legal definition of 'woman' and resist the creep of 'gender'.

@Whatwouldscullydo

But oppression of trans people is hardly a historical phenomena, its less than a decade after Lucy Meadows suicide following being monstered in the right wing press

What happened to Lucy was tragic. But there are more deaths through suicide of men than trans people. Men are actually higher risk of suicide than anyone else. Woman attempt it a fair bit but their methods are usually less violent than when men do it so women don't succeed is the wrong word but you know what I mean.

And yes what do you mean by the term transwonan becuase the definition has somewhat expanded now. And realky think about it. You are honestly believing in the oppression of , well let's just say that Straight white XY people have convinced you they are the most opressed. More so than the female babies dumped on trash heaps and the black women 5 times more likely to die in chikd birth.

Just think about it

I find oppressed people working together to recognise their commonalities and shared struggle is more effective than getting into oppression Olympics. Bit I very much doubt the experience of womanhood of most women posting here is remotely comparable to the experience of womanhood in places where things like that take place, just as a trans women in the UK has a very different experience to a trans woman tortured to death in Saudi Arabia: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/transgender-pakistani-saudi-arabia-tortured-death-amna-meeno-11-custody-lgbt-rights-human-a7607446.html

But yes, trans women, just like all women, have been historically oppressed and still are. Perhaps you don't know enough trans people to have witnessed it first hand but for a non trans person to claim trans people don't face oppression is as crass as a man claiming sexism no longer exists.

Along with your definition of 'man' jj, can you also explain the difference between a man and a woman?

Do you agree with these dictionary definitions?

Man: Adult male human

Woman: Adult female human

Male: of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female

Female: of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs

jj1968 depends on who you think is a great feminist thinker I guess, sounds to me like MacKinnon is having to write meaningless waffle supporting the TWAW line in order to stay in academia. "going around being a woman" is not a definition in any sense of the word, and anyone who can come out with that kind of useless word salad is no kind of thinker

Nope sorry. Just no

The statistics are false.
And they and their activists managed to get dozens of organisations to break the law on their behalf. And they still claim opression cos women don't want dicks in their changing rooms. If that's their idea if being oppressed perhaps try to be an indigenous woman in Canada where if you go missing no one even gives a shit.

We don't believe it any more. Sorry

But yes, trans women, just like all women, have been historically oppressed and still are.

If you had expressed this like this I would agree with you:

"But yes, trans women, just like all gender nonconforming men, have been historically oppressed and still are."

Men who are considered effeminate or not performing masculinity correctly are often oppressed. Often because they are gay or are perceived to be gay. There is a lot of homophobia in the world.

But no male people are women because people can't change sex.

And just take a moment to think about who the oppressors are. They're not (generally) women. You would do better to demand that men accept that there are lots of ways to be a man, and some of those ways aren't 'masculine'. You should be demanding (of men) that femininity in males should be acceptable, not insisting that women accept feminine males as no different from ourselves.

More pragmatically, to quote MacKinnon "Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I'm concerned, is a woman.

Well you would be wrong in that belief then. People might wish to be something, they might identify as something, they might try to emulate what that looks like. But the cold hard truth remains the same underneath. As archeologists would demonstrate when they dig up the bones of our ancestors.

That MacKinnon quote is pretty clearly just a personal opinion, not a serious attempt at a meaningful definition.