Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

@jj1968

Shapiro is ruthlessly anti abortion, Liddle had repeatedly undermined rape and sexual assault and Peterson has spoken in favour of enforced monogamy. Of course it would harm women if they ever got the kind of society they advocate.

And if it were the 1970s those same men would be railing against the dangerous Marxism and authoritarianism of Dworkin and McKinnon. That's what wealthy white right wing men do, anything that might affect their privileged position is totalitarian.

That doesn't mean the left is beyond criticism, but if you really can't see that these men are profoundly anti-feminist, dangerous for women and in their own way every bit as authoritarian and censorious as the worst of those they attack you are breathtakingly naive.

I don't believe for one minute these men do not believe in equality for women. Shapiro is anti- abortion- so are many women.

I've no idea what you meant by Liddle had repeatedly undermined rape and sexual assault- I think there must be words missing. As far as I'm aware the assertion that Peterson is in favour of enforced monogamy is a misinterpretation of what he said. None of them worry anything like the dangerous, authoritarian nonsense which is now mainstream left wing.

that doesn't mean the left is beyond criticism, but if you really can't see that these men are profoundly anti-feminist, dangerous for women and in their own way every bit as authoritarian and censorious as the worst of those they attack you are breathtakingly naive.

Bullshit. This is the problem with people like you, who just take soundbites of other people's work, without ever listening to any of it in full. You don't understand the nuances of it and you don't understand the bigger picture. Suggest you spend some time actually listening and understanding what they are saying, and what they mean, rating than commenting on something you clearly know little about.

*rather not rating. (I wouldn't trust your ratings that's for sure)

Ann Sinnott has tweeted this
AEA was accepted as a stakeholder by GEO & EHRC prior to legal action. AEA’s red lines: Single-sex services to be protected. Orgs shouldn't routinely use disabled toilets as a way out of the sex v trans dilemma. Orgs providing ONLY gender-neutral toilets should be challenged.

So GEO & EHRC accept Ann's company as stakeholder but wont comply with widely correcting their previous interpretation of the EA

I've no idea what you meant by Liddle had repeatedly undermined rape and sexual assault- I think there must be words missing. As far as I'm aware the assertion that Peterson is in favour of enforced monogamy is a misinterpretation of what he said. None of them worry anything like the dangerous, authoritarian nonsense which is now mainstream left wing.

If the instinct of gender critical activists is to defend men like this against the dangers of socialists, third wave feminists and anti-racists then you can't really complain when people characterise your movement as right wing.

The right are using GC activism as a penetration point into the left to disrupt and recruit, they couldn't give a fuck about women's refuges or sex based rights.

It's always arse backwards with these arguments.

1. The wedge issue isn't gender critical feminism. It's identity politics whose worst manifestation are transgender ideology and legislation. Identity politics is negatively effecting all civil rights movements, but the women's rights one worst of all.

The decline of the left in European politics is profound, has progressed beyond most of our worst expectations and precedes the self-id debate. Identity politics has played a major part in that. It continues to wreak havoc. The far right has correctly identified the danger identity politics poses to people's freedom of belief, freedom of expression and freedom of assembly. And it's driving those points home over and over again. The arguments that follow (against immigration, against feminism, against socialism) are framed within this context, which is why they are sounding persuasive to many people not familiar with the root causes of racism, misogyny and capitalism.

And way too many people are cheering them on and remaining wilfully ignorant about what their agenda actually is.

1. We are not cheering them on. There's a) a difference between seeking to clarify someone's position when you feel it's been misrepresented and cheering someone on. And b) a difference between agreeing with one aspect of what someone says and agreeing with everything they say, let alone championing their cause.

Furthermore, the far more worrying issue is the profound ignorance of the majority of those cheering on transgender ideology and legislation. The end point, as declared in Principle 31 of the Yogyakarta Principles, is the abolition of sex as a characteristic underlying any laws. Worldwide. This is an open, declared, and unashamed war on the rights of women. All this handwaving about how we got it all wrong, we just have to be kind... directly progresses this aim.

This ideology is now harming women and children on all continents. The people pushing it are seeking to destroy feminism. To abolish women's rights and erase women as a political class, as a legal category and a protected group.

They do not fight to end the oppression of women and girls. They seek to make it impossible to even address it, let alone taking steps to redress it.

And in the context of women's rights, that is far worse than anything the right seeks to do. By an order of magnitude.

If the instinct of gender critical activists is to defend men like this against the dangers of socialists, third wave feminists and anti-racists then you can't really complain when people characterise your movement as right wing.

1. Again, arse backwards. We wouldn't bother talking about some right wingers most people aren't even aware of if those who oppose transgender ideology and legislation weren't first accused of being right wing. Long before any of these right wingers took the least notice of this issue were we already, and constantly, accused of being right wing. Because that is what identity politics does.

@CharlieParley

The right are using GC activism as a penetration point into the left to disrupt and recruit, they couldn't give a fuck about women's refuges or sex based rights.

It's always arse backwards with these arguments.

1. The wedge issue isn't gender critical feminism. It's identity politics whose worst manifestation are transgender ideology and legislation. Identity politics is negatively effecting all civil rights movements, but the women's rights one worst of all.

The decline of the left in European politics is profound, has progressed beyond most of our worst expectations and precedes the self-id debate. Identity politics has played a major part in that. It continues to wreak havoc. The far right has correctly identified the danger identity politics poses to people's freedom of belief, freedom of expression and freedom of assembly. And it's driving those points home over and over again. The arguments that follow (against immigration, against feminism, against socialism) are framed within this context, which is why they are sounding persuasive to many people not familiar with the root causes of racism, misogyny and capitalism.

And way too many people are cheering them on and remaining wilfully ignorant about what their agenda actually is.

1. We are not cheering them on. There's a) a difference between seeking to clarify someone's position when you feel it's been misrepresented and cheering someone on. And b) a difference between agreeing with one aspect of what someone says and agreeing with everything they say, let alone championing their cause.

Furthermore, the far more worrying issue is the profound ignorance of the majority of those cheering on transgender ideology and legislation. The end point, as declared in Principle 31 of the Yogyakarta Principles, is the abolition of sex as a characteristic underlying any laws. Worldwide. This is an open, declared, and unashamed war on the rights of women. All this handwaving about how we got it all wrong, we just have to be kind... directly progresses this aim.

This ideology is now harming women and children on all continents. The people pushing it are seeking to destroy feminism. To abolish women's rights and erase women as a political class, as a legal category and a protected group.

They do not fight to end the oppression of women and girls. They seek to make it impossible to even address it, let alone taking steps to redress it.

And in the context of women's rights, that is far worse than anything the right seeks to do. By an order of magnitude.

If the instinct of gender critical activists is to defend men like this against the dangers of socialists, third wave feminists and anti-racists then you can't really complain when people characterise your movement as right wing.

1. Again, arse backwards. We wouldn't bother talking about some right wingers most people aren't even aware of if those who oppose transgender ideology and legislation weren't first accused of being right wing. Long before any of these right wingers took the least notice of this issue were we already, and constantly, accused of being right wing. Because that is what identity politics does.

1. The wedge issue isn't gender critical feminism. It's identity politics whose worst manifestation are transgender ideology and legislation. Identity politics is negatively effecting all civil rights movements, but the women's rights one worst of all.

The term identity politics was first used by the The Combahee River Collective to describe black women's struggle, and feminists were attacked relentlessly by socialist men for placing 'identity politics' over class struggle. It is no suprise to see the right using the same technique now against feminists, people of colour and LGBT people. The great trick of the right has been to cause working class people to lose sight of their shared interests and support policies which are actively harmful to the working class in the name of protecting them from a dangerous other, whether immigrants, gays, or now trans people. And the Patriarchy has repeatedly attempted to do the same to women. As Dworkin notes in Right Wing Women:

(right wing) "Women cling to irrational hatreds, focused particularly on the unfamiliar, so that they will not murder their fathers, husbands, sons, brothers, lovers, the men with whom they are intimate, those who do hurt them and cause them grief. Fear of a greater evil and a need to be protected from it intensify the loyalty of women to men who are, even when dangerous, at least known quantities. Because women so displace their rage, they are easily controlled and manipulated haters. Having good reason to hate, but not the courage to rebel, women require symbols of danger that justify their fear. The Right provides these symbols of danger by designating clearly defined groups of outsiders as sources of danger. The identities of the dangerous outsiders can change over time to meet changing social circumstances— for ex­ample, racism can be encouraged or contained; anti-Semitism can be provoked or kept dormant; homophobia can be aggravated or kept under the surface— but the existence of the dangerous out­sider always functions for women simultaneously as deception, di­version, pain-killer, and threat."

She could have been describing perfectly the way the Patriachal right stoked fears of bathroom predators in order to enact legislation in they form of bathroom bills that they believed would re-inforce gender norms. That is why the right is so dangerous in this debate. They will actively stoke fears outside groups, whether trans women, immigrants, BLM protesters, Queers, whatever works at the time, to further entrench Patriarchy and capitalism. And there seems to be next to no acknowledgement or analysis of that when some GC activists nod along to the transphobia of profoundly anti-feminist men or the religious and conservative right and think well I may not agree with everything but at least they are on my side against the dangerous other. They are not on your side.

But why do you care, jj? You are not on our side either.

What about the men?????? Don't they cling to irrational hatred too. All those men smashing up shops, churches etc in Nazi Germany and the American Deep South should have known better and sent in all the women. Too early to have read Dworkin though, maybe that's why they didn't know that is only women who hate all strangers because they want to kill their hubbies.
So what about all the paedophiles and mens rights activists vehemently promoting the mantra TWAW? What does their presence in your movement mean?What fears are they stoking in your community? Are you all nodding along to their deep rooted hatred of women as well?

What about the men?????? Don't they cling to irrational hatred too. All those men smashing up shops, churches etc in Nazi Germany and the American Deep South should have known better and sent in all the women

I specifically began my post by pointing out how the right has manipulated some working class people into hatred towards a degenerate or dangerous other as a distraction from the real threat.

So what about all the paedophiles and mens rights activists vehemently promoting the mantra TWAW?

If by MRA you mean men who are actively anti-abotion, oppose feminism, believe in traditional marriage and that patriarchy is a myth then I'm afraid they are all pretty much firmly on the anti-trans side.

And what paedophiles? Name one paedophile who is going round vehemently promoting the mantra TWAW?

David Challenor, Peter Bright and Eric Joyce were all vociferous in their support for TWAW. The fact that two of them are now in prison might be curtailing their activities somewhat.

And what paedophiles? Name one paedophile who is going round vehemently promoting the mantra TWAW?

Go and have a lie down, you obviously need one if you're asking people to 'name paedophiles'.

The above have all been charged and convicted of such offences and were already posted about upthread, so I don't really know why I was asked for their names.

@334bu

The above have all been charged and convicted of such offences and were already posted about upthread, so I don't really know why I was asked for their names.

I’m sure JJ will be along shortly to tell you why you’re wrong 😏

If the instinct of gender critical activists is to defend men like this against the dangers of socialists, third wave feminists and anti-racists then you can't really complain when people characterise your movement as right wing

Oh you can count me out here. I'm not a gender critical activist and am certainly not part of any movement.

Socialism, as punted by the likes of Corbyn and Momentum is dangerous; as is Antifa. BLM ,(the trade marked version) is openly Marxist and anti- capitalist. Not supporting Marxist and the destruction of capitalism does not make anyone a racist.

I defend men like this because they make a damn sight more sense that the nonsense coming from the lunatic left. I don't agree with a lot of what they say, especially Shapiro, but Shapiro is never going to stop me expressing an opinion or try to get me sacked for expressing an opinion he disagrees with.

Oh and btw , you clearly think "right wing" is an insult. I'm by UK standards probably in the Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, Ruth Davidson field. I have no problem being told I'm right wing.

@334bu

David Challenor, Peter Bright and Eric Joyce were all vociferous in their support for TWAW. The fact that two of them are now in prison might be curtailing their activities somewhat.

No-one had even heard of Challenor before his conviction. I'm sure there are plenty of paedophiles in prison who think trans women are men. And Joyce wrote in support of gender critical concerns: www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2018/01/in-the-gender-recognition-debate-womens-views-must-count-most/

But I wouldn't use that to claim that paedophiles are going round insisting gender critical activists have a point because that would be both ridiculous and an unnecessary and deeply hateful slur.

Another thread derailed with word salad whatabouttery.....

And accusing women of espousing extreme right views is not a slur!!! How convenient.

Extreme right wing views!!

women of espousing extreme right views sounds like an oxymoron.

Aesopfable

Some information on Eric Joyce below
www.womenarehuman.com/ex-member-of-parliament-a-transgender-ally-is-spared-prison-for-sex-abuse-images-of-small-children/

@334bu

And accusing women of espousing extreme right views is not a slur!!! How convenient.

If someone is going round espousing the views of someone like Ben Shapiro who wants to ban all abortions even in the event of rape, opposes equal pay, thinks gays and lesbians are mentally ill and has called for the forced expulsion of all Palestians from the occupied territories then it is not a slur to call them extreme right, it is a fact.

But your implication that women who share his gender critical views are all extreme right wing is very far from being a fact and is in fact a slur.

No-one had even heard of Challenor before his conviction.

We often don't know people are paedophiles until they're convicted, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

I'm sure there are plenty of paedophiles in prison who think trans women are men.

I'm sure there are. But half the self-identified transwomen in prison are sex offenders. Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.