Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

That was to*

Thing is, there's a legal definition of 'sex'.
And I can't think of a single good reason for wanting to break down peoples boundaries around privacy.

@CloudyVanilla

But these are peoples moral views, not specific anecdotal situations. It comes down to you saying you believe trans people are a big enough threat to exclude them from single sex spaces as a default, and me saying that I don't feel this way because I believe that they aren't as much of a threat stated and that pragmatically excluding them from certain women's spaces (like toilets) as a default is far more likely to harm them than it is going to save women from any harm/embarrassment etc.

No one is minimising. They are just fundamentally different perspectives

But most men aren't a threat either. Should we let all men in as well and just exclude the bad ones after they've shown themselves to be bad?

We already exclude an entire group of people from female only spaces; we exclude members of the male sex. Transwomen are all male so we are not discriminating against them.

Most men aren't more vulnerable to each other because of their gender identity either.

You have to have reasonable grounds to say an entire group of people is an objective threat before you exclude them!

Yes. The scale of rape and murder of women by men is totally abhorrent. Look in any newspaper on any day to see what men do to women. That is why we exclude males from female spaces.

Look I think if some GC demands were met is would be devastating to trans and GNC people and women generally.

What is your definition of 'GNC people'?

@CloudyVanilla

But these are peoples moral views, not specific anecdotal situations. It comes down to you saying you believe trans people are a big enough threat to exclude them from single sex spaces as a default, and me saying that I don't feel this way because I believe that they aren't as much of a threat stated and that pragmatically excluding them from certain women's spaces (like toilets) as a default is far more likely to harm them than it is going to save women from any harm/embarrassment etc.

No one is minimising. They are just fundamentally different perspectives

How many women are required to suffer harm before you think they matter? We already know women and girls are being assaulted by men claiming to be transwomen in women’s toilets, that women and girls are 18 times more likely to be assaulted in mixed sex spaces, that women and girls are much more likely to be victims of voyeurism when men are allowed to self id into female spaces. I guess none of these count when set against men’s feelings?

@EvenSupposing

What's it called when you claim that the horrible thing someone is trying to stop you doing to them isn't that bad after all and those claiming it is are using hyperbole? What's that called again?

Is that 'minimising'?

And what is it abusers do again? What's that thing they do about their abuse? Oh yeah, it's minimising.

And what was that about Stonewall? Maybe they don't want to remove the EA exemptions? And if they did it was a long time ago and it wasn't a major campaign? Is that...um...'deny'.

It didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was...

We see you. We all see you.

It's genuinely funny now.

nobody who is supportive of trans people is actively seeking to destroy women's rights and children's safeguards

"So why are trans groups lobbying to have single sex exemptions removed from the Equality Act?"

Come on no-one really is.

Come on no one really is. Not reeely

And if they did it was ages ago. And if it was ages ago, they meant something different. And if they meant something different then... oh, I'm sorry I forgotten the number I first thought of.

It never ceases to amaze me how our biggest promotors are so often a transactivist.

Schedule 3 Part 7 Sections 26-28 It discusses the exemptions and the explanatory notes give the example of whether it would be legal to exclude someone with the characteristic of gender reassignment from a rape counselling session, which it would as we know. If the comparator was intended by the act to be a man this would be irrelevent.

Not meaning to be rude but I think you're misunderstanding how the Act works JJ. If a transwoman has a GRC, then their sex for the purposes of the EA2010 is female and their comparator is female, but they can still be excluded in certain circumstances from single sex provision because they are a transwoman, relying on the exemptions.

As Green shows, until/unless a GRC is obtained a transwoman is legally regarded as male and has no entitlement under the EA2010 to access female spaces. Their comparator is male.

A pp has provided a link which explains that Green is a High Court case with significant precedent value, whereas the Halifax case was a first instance County Court case where the defendant was not legally represented, did not attend the hearing and did not ask the judge to consider the fact that the claimant did not have a GRC 🤷‍♀️

Those pesky single sex exemptions. Still there despite trans groups and their allies campaign to remove them.

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemption

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemption

It comes down to you saying you believe trans people are a big enough threat to exclude them from single sex spaces as a default,

No, it comes down to us saying the male sex class is a big enough threat to exclude them from single-sex spaces provided for the female sex class.

This is why we have female-only spaces in the first place.

We are not arguing to exclude males who identify as trans from female-only spaces because they are trans but we are arguing to exclude males who identify as trans because they are male.

So, to repeat, we are defending the existing legal right for female people in the UK to female-only spaces, from which all male people are excluded regardless of their identity (and not spaces from which all people who identify as trans are excluded regardless of their sex as you claim).

I hope this helps you argue with our actual position and not the strawman you inadvertently presented there.

and me saying that I don't feel this way because I believe that they aren't as much of a threat stated and that pragmatically excluding them from certain women's spaces (like toilets) as a default is far more likely to harm them than it is going to save women from any harm/embarrassment etc.

Now that you (hopefully) understand what our actual position is, would you like to rephrase the rest of your comment so that we may engage on the basis of the real argument?

And those young women will go on to have children themselves and the dangers they once mocked and dismissed will be then become obvious to them.

Nothing wakes a woman up more than motherhood.

I think what I find most off putting though is the increasing use of seeing kindness as a negative trait. We are told that women are always told to be kind. I am a mother and I also remember my own mother telling all of us to be kind.

If you dig a bit deeper, Cloudy, you'll find that we ARE extremely kind. Just not to men who claim to belong to the female sex without ever experiencing female suppression and disadvantages, and STILL wanting the few crumbs we were given (private spaces).
We are extremely kind to children, the disabled, the truly vulnerable. We will fight to the death for the protection of our daughters and granddaughters. That's what this is about.

Even those young females who do not yet have the maturity to see through the huge delusion that is going on, the ones yelling "bigot" at us: we are fighting for them, and being kind. It's a marathon, not a quick dash. One day those young women, too will find out: the Emperor is naked.

Transideology gained so much traction, and found so much superficial acceptance, because it was sneakily introduced without the public's knowledge, and most of the public as yet have no idea in the consequences, and simply want to "be kind". Once they know, their tune changes.

@334bu

So would that apply to transwomen, non binary males, cross dressers and gender fluid males too, as they all come under the trans umbrella and if they can all access female only spaces , should all males not then have access as well ?

There'll be nobody left in the fucking Gents at this rate!

@jj1968

Many men as well as women are very much fighting back.

Indeed they are. Donald Trump, George Galloway, Ruper Murdoch, David Davies, Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, Brendan O Neill, some of the most awful creepy misogynist men on the planet are very much on your side. No wonder young feminists looks at that shitshow and think eugh.

How many of those men call themselves feminist?

None I should think and this is not a left vs right, it is a single issue 'women's rights' and most of us here will take any support we can get.

If you brand us 'far right' because of some who might support us, then you have misunderstood

Trans allies.
Peter Bright
Eric Joyce
David Challenor

The above all support self ID and have all been convicted of heinous crimes. However, nobody accuses other supporters of self id of sharing their proclivities just because they share one opinion on one topic.

If you brand us 'far right' because of some who might support us, then you have misunderstood

I agree, but...
I would be viewed as left wing (really I'm in the centre but the country has moved so far to the right I look left wing).
I also know the difference between a man and a woman.
The far right is very anti trans people (I'm not) and vocal about it. Although I support women only spaces (as do they), I really, really don't want to stand with these people. They are not pro women, they are anti trans.
So, where does this leave me? I completely understand why young women wouldn't want to stand on the same side of a debate as them.

It's like Brexit.
You can be a lovely, passionate, anti racist Leave voter.
But look where this has got you. Britain First, EDL, UKIP and all the other racist groups have benefited from your support for Leave.

It's a problem and I don't know what the solution is.

@KenDodd

Because accessible toilets are not everywhere. People have plan trips around toilet breaks. Because it's a need. Maybe there is no law against anyone going in them but common courtesy says we don't.

Read this article.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/04/30/by-using-the-disabled-toilet-youre-putting-me-at-risk-9327740/amp/

This reminds me of how feminists are against prostitution (sorry, but I refuse to call it sex work) and religions are against it too. But both groups, tho' are coming at it from different angles and viewpoints.

If anyone actually believes that feminists are exactly the same as extreme right-wingers (or the religious) then they must be really stupid.

Nobody is asking you to stand with these people. I am on the left and abhor people like Trump etc. I no more support them because I don't believe that humans can change sex as they do, than trans people and their allies support paedophiles because some (see post above) have supported and campaigned for self id.

@highame

None I should think and this is not a left vs right, it is a single issue 'women's rights' and most of us here will take any support we can get.

If you brand us 'far right' because of some who might support us, then you have misunderstood

Yep. This.