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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Accessible Toilets

999 replies

WarOnWomen · 03/10/2020 13:28

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Accessible Toilets
OP posts:
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jj1968 · 04/10/2020 22:23

@EvenSupposing

It's only going in one direction jj. What do you think happens once the litigation starts in the US?

The moment I knew it was won was when I saw that no win no fee ad this week.

Oh yes, the two bit law firm who put up a page knowing it would be shared and tweeted hundreds of times and boost their website up google's page rankings. It was a clever bit of SEO for sure, but there's no lawsuits yet and there aren't likely to be any. People have been medically transitioning since the 60s, no law suits yet.
ErrolTheDragon · 04/10/2020 22:23

I think what I find most off putting though is the increasing use of seeing kindness as a negative trait.

Kindness is generally a virtue, but not if it's foolish kindness, or kindness to one group at the expense of another.

The Buddhists have it about right - they pair compassion with wisdom.

CloudyVanilla · 04/10/2020 22:24

@EvenSupposing oh my gosh please get over yourself and calm down.

I was saying for a long time in the law there has been a general trend of social progressiveness and of increasing human rights in the UK and USA, and probably most countries. My point was that if we start giving groups rights and recognising them in law (as in gender non conforming peoole are relatively one of the newer groups of people recognised) we don't usually then go back on them. I did then add that it's not actually that accurate at the moment to say we don't go back on socially progressive laws because of the many challenges to abortion rights laws in America being successfully challenged.

But no you're not off putting to other feminists at all... Hmm

Datun · 04/10/2020 22:26

Kindness isn't a negative trait, cloudy, don't be silly.

Comply or else, is the negative trait.

Otherwise, you'd think, wouldn't you, that men, having ruled the roost for millennia, could take a moment to be 'kind'.

Datun · 04/10/2020 22:28

Gender nonconforming people aren't a 'new' group!

🤣

Datun · 04/10/2020 22:30

honestly. It's feminists who are gender nonconforming 😁

Not those demanding women give up all their boundaries do what they're told.

334bu · 04/10/2020 22:30

There were no child transitioners in the 60s.

CloudyVanilla · 04/10/2020 22:32

Datun I mean trans people I used the wrong term

jj1968 · 04/10/2020 22:33

@Datun

The moment I knew it was won was when I saw that no win no fee ad this week.

Yep.

lol, talk about clutching at straws.
jj1968 · 04/10/2020 22:35

@334bu

There were no child transitioners in the 60s.
There were in the 90s in some places. No lawsuits. Anywhere. You'd expect there to be at least a few by now if there is genuinely going to be a flood of them in the near future.
Datun · 04/10/2020 22:38

Absolutely, as we all know, lawyers never have any kind of instinct for making money.

jj1968 · 04/10/2020 22:40

@Datun

Absolutely, as we all know, lawyers never have any kind of instinct for making money.
They've certainly seen you lot coming, £600k and counting I believe, and nothing yet to show for it.
334bu · 04/10/2020 22:41

So thirty years ago children had their puberty blocked, were given sex change hormones and underwent genital surgery while still minors? Where?

EvenSupposing · 04/10/2020 22:42

In the 60's was there a paper trail at the UK's main gender clinic showing that safeguarding recommendations from 15 years ago haven't been acted upon? I don't think there was y'know.

And Cloudy I understand your 'argument'. Mainly because it gets made all the time (and on this thread about 5 pages ago). But a. It's bollocks because societies change their social mores all the time and b. It fails to address the GC argument that gender identity is regressive, not progressive.

And I'll be as angry as I like about you trying to use abortion rights to bolster your misogynist cause on FWR ta very much.

BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache · 04/10/2020 22:45

Hang on, I just want to back up seventeen pages, to this quote from cloudy...

"Not the addressed poster but I was interested in this. Intuitively it just made sense to me that LGBTQ people were more at risk of sexual assault because I think like a pp said men can be weird and violent against non gender conforming people"

If the T are more open to violence in the men's toilets based on the above (and note, you specifically said "LGBTQ" and not just "trans"), it would therefore follow that you want to give gay and bisexual men access to disabled facilities too? As it's safer? Is that right?

Fuck that.

EvenSupposing · 04/10/2020 22:46

Why don't we all agree to met here, under this very tree, in 5 years time? We can see who was right Grin

KenDodd · 04/10/2020 22:47

Could someone please explain to me why disabled people are so protective of their toilets and don't want anyone who does not meet a very strict definition of disabled using them? Serious question, and I don't mean it to be disrespectful.

I know disabled people campaigned to get accessible toilets, but we have them now, they're NOT a rarity. I have only once in my whole life (I'm 51) seen even one person waiting to get into an accessible toilet because it was occurred, even while there have been massive queues for the ladies right next to them. The queue was years ago at a festival, massive queue outside all the portaloos, a disabled person came along, and went straight to the front, so didn't have to wait even then. I sure if someone came along with an invisible disability they would also have just gone to the front.

I remember a disabled person on here saying years ago they'd rather someone with an upset tummy shat themselves in the queue than use the disabled. They never said why though. If I was disabled I can't imagine why I'd object to someone with a couple of kids in a pushchair using the disabled or a TW or someone who for whatever reason had difficulty using the other toilets.

I hope I won't be abused for asking, I don't mean to be disrespectful.

KarenCaron · 04/10/2020 22:48

jj1968 I haven't said any of those things to you. But I see you're frustrated and angry. It doesn't really matter though. Women standing up for themselves always provokes some anger from others, even some other women. 🤷‍♀️
All that matters in this particular debate is the legal safeguards and protections for children and women. And we won't be sitting back watching activists do their best to destroy those. Not. Going. To. Happen.

jj1968 · 04/10/2020 22:51

@334bu

So thirty years ago children had their puberty blocked, were given sex change hormones and underwent genital surgery while still minors? Where?
The Netherlands were using blockers back then. This soon crossed to over to the US and as we saw this week was common practice in the UK by 2005. And as I'm sure you know, genital surgery is not available for under 18s in the UK.
KarenCaron · 04/10/2020 22:51

Political acceptance of marginalised groups isn't a trend though. It is quite rare that we go backwards in terms of progressive acceptance

Gender ideology seeks to destroy women's rights and children's safeguards. That is not progress.

334bu · 04/10/2020 22:53

The problem for many disabled people is that they literally can't wait and unlike the rest of us they can't use any other toilet.

334bu · 04/10/2020 22:54

Didn't stop Susie Green.

CloudyVanilla · 04/10/2020 22:58

@BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache mmm I'd say you've jumped the gun a little. That was in a conversation about statistics and the statistics covered not just trans people but lesbian and gay and non binary people too. I said it made intuitive sense to me that this would be the case. Maybe gay men also get flack in the men's toilets, but I and no one else is campaigning for every soul to be let in to women's toilets. There are reasonable arguments in support of trans women not being subjected to using the mens toilets based on dignity and safety concerns. Whether you agree or not is fine but none of what I said contradicts that.

Datun · 04/10/2020 22:59

They've certainly seen you lot coming, £600k and counting I believe, and nothing yet to show for it

All these women doing what they like with their money. I'm amazed it annoys so many.

CloudyVanilla · 04/10/2020 23:00

@KarenCaron does it seek to do that though or is it an unfortunate direct conflict of interests? Are you saying trans men and women just identifting as such just to give the rest of society grief? Hmm

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