Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Statement from Fair Play For Women:

Yesterday we talked about the idea of unisex facilities alongside single-sex ones and the potential for existing accessible facilities to fulfil that role. We realise that this idea could negatively impact disabled woman and children, and people have told us they feel hurt worried and angry about this. We're sorry. We know how it feels when policy that affects you is discussed without you being involved. We made a mistake and will take extra care to listen and learn. Our job at Fair Play For Women is to always focus on ways to preserve single-sex spaces for women and girls. It is absolutely right that any ideas that affect disabled people must involve disability campaigners too. Solutions must always fairly balance the rights of everyone affected.

Thank you,
Nicola Williams

Transwomen will either have to return to their designated male loos, or if that is too "hurtful", find another solution, ie third spaces. This seems the most feasible and perhaps needing the least building work, as the space would actually be there.

Do you really believe that? With trans inclusion becoming normal all over the world that suddenly the UK is going to introduce some of the most trans hostile rules on the planet? Not even Trump has been so bold. You won't get a better shot than this with a right leaning Tory government at the helm and so far Truss has said no.

Just a quick lol at this sentence -

I think the vagueness of the GC movement has been part of it's [sic] undoing

Undoing?! Mate. It's over you just haven't realised it yet.

When you look back wondering when it all started to come apart properly - well actually that was probably about two years ago - but this was the point where the writing was on the wall so obviously that the ambulance chasers turned up. Once that happens it's all over bar the shouting.

You'll be needing a namechange and a new twitter pic👍

@Malahaha

Well why aren't you campaigning for a bathroom bill then? Because at present trans women can legally use the women's and all the evidence points to it being illegal to force them to use the mens.

No they can't. No it doesn't.

Well they can. Baroness Berridge, the Minister for Women, confirmed in the Lords recently that in the overwhelming number of cases access to single sex spaces is based on self id and the Government has no plans to change the. The courts have backed that decision. GEO and EHRC are prepared to go to court to defend it. That's the GEO headed by Liz Truss, who has ministerial responsibility for the decision to fight Anne Sinnot's EA case in court.

DoctorW
This is what I love about feminism and being a woman. FPFW can empathise and apologise. I recall Transgender Trend doing the same over some initiative that turned out to be not a good idea.

What a contrast to last week's trans groups all reverse ferreting over their 'born in the wrong body' and open safeguarding breaching ideology. Just deleting anything that might open them up to legal consequences but zero emotional maturity to acknowledge faults and no genuine care for children.

Well done FPFW for being open about this.

The courts have backed that decision. GEO and EHRC are prepared to go to court to defend it.

The EHRC are not going to court to defend this; they have already conceded that point, adjusted some guidance and withdrawn other guidance.

@Aesopfable

The courts have backed that decision. GEO and EHRC are prepared to go to court to defend it.

The EHRC are not going to court to defend this; they have already conceded that point, adjusted some guidance and withdrawn other guidance.

This is what the EHRC still say in their official guidance:

a service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your gender identity. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing, intends to undergo or has undergone gender reassignment

So if you are male like all transwomen you can be excluded from female only spaces. Good to know.

Can you link us to where it says that because they have admitted that that is wrong in law? The comparator for discrimination purposes for a transwoman without a GRC is a man - a transwoman must nIt be treated any differently from other men or it would be discrimination due to gender reassignment.

@jj1968

Transwomen will either have to return to their designated male loos, or if that is too "hurtful", find another solution, ie third spaces. This seems the most feasible and perhaps needing the least building work, as the space would actually be there.

Do you really believe that? With trans inclusion becoming normal all over the world that suddenly the UK is going to introduce some of the most trans hostile rules on the planet? Not even Trump has been so bold. You won't get a better shot than this with a right leaning Tory government at the helm and so far Truss has said no.

Trust me on this. Trans ideology was pushed through without the consent of women, but slowly, as more and more women wake up to what it means for them, the pushback will become stronger.

I give it ten years. The UK is leading the world. There will be some serious lawsuits, and then the wheels will slowly fall off the bus.
There is no way an ideology built on an delusion (that people can actually change sex) will be the dominant one in years to come.

The pushback is happening worldwide, even in the USA and Canada, and Ireland; you just can't see it yet. Half of the world's population can't be ignored forever.

There have always been two sets of toilets (at least in the last century or so), and we will go back to that, and eventually men will have to use their own as more and more women resist. Brace!

@Aesopfable

Can you link us to where it says that because they have admitted that that is wrong in law? The comparator for discrimination purposes for a transwoman without a GRC is a man - a transwoman must nIt be treated any differently from other men or it would be discrimination due to gender reassignment.

They haven't admitted that was wrong in law. It is highly unlikely the courts would view the comparator to be a man, the EA explanatory notes clearly refer to access to single sex spaces inline with gender. That's why EHRC guidance states what it states. It is their legal opinion on how the courts would interpret the law, no doubt taken after extensive consultation with actual lawyers, probably quite good ones as well.

the guidance can be found at: www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Why wouldn't they view the comparator to be a man? Men are male and so are transwomen.

Trust me on this. Trans ideology was pushed through without the consent of women, but slowly, as more and more women wake up to what it means for them, the pushback will become stronger.

Nobody under 35 gives a shit. They think your position is baffling and unlike a lot of GC people they actually know and are friends with trans people. They aren't going to change their minds and they will be running the country in a decade or so. Meanwhile transition is getting cheaper and easier, medical techniques are improving, trans rights are moving forward all over the world, trans people are becoming visible in prominent positions, you're fighting the tide coming in. Even if you get some small populist wins in the UK they won't be sustained, just like Section 28 wasn't. I admire your optimism but the generational divide alone suggests this is only going one way. Just wait till gene hacking and stem cell treatments start being used to modify bodies, this whole row is going to look rather quaint and archaic.

Wow next stop transhumanism!
For the moment humans can't change sex . Body modification is just that . A male person no matter the modifications remains male and vice versa for females. Let's live in the real world and not fantasy.

Nobody under 35 gives a shit.

Some of today's teens to twenties do. Some of them are seeing the harm.

@334bu

Why wouldn't they view the comparator to be a man? Men are male and so are transwomen.

Because the Equality Act explanatory notes clearly talk about trans access to single sex spaces so the courts are likely to interpret that as meaning the act intended the comparator to be women (in the case of trans women). And in fact that's what they have found: www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

So would that apply to transwomen, non binary males, cross dressers and gender fluid males too, as they all come under the trans umbrella and if they can all access female only spaces , should all males not then have access as well ?

Because the Equality Act explanatory notes clearly talk about trans access to single sex spaces so the courts are likely to interpret that as meaning the act intended the comparator to be women (in the case of trans women). And in fact that's what they have found: www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

Nope. We recently discussed this particular case on another thread.

The case was uncontested. The judge gave no finding at all about the issue in question, and this court is too low to set a precedent.

The EA explanatory notes do also contain a different section about offering those who identify as trans an alternative solution, but nor access to opposite sex facilities.

Furthermore, the EHRC itself clarified in a separate public statement that the comparator for those who identify as trans depends on their legal sex.

The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

Sorry forgot to bold the first paragraph as that was a quote.

Here is the thread where we discussed the case jj1968 refers to above in detail.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4030469-Balanced-BBC-explainer-on-womens-rights-and-transgender-people

[quote SpartacusAutisticus]"It is highly unlikely the courts would view the comparator to be a man, the EA explanatory notes clearly refer to access to single sex spaces inline with gender. "

I'm struggling to find that in the EA2010, any chance of a link as it seems rather pertinent to your argument.

The man as comparator case is argued here:
filia.org.uk/news/2018/8/23/has-everyone-really-got-it-wrong[/quote]
Schedule 3 Part 7 Sections 26-28 It discusses the exemptions and the explanatory notes give the example of whether it would be legal to exclude someone with the characteristic of gender reassignment from a rape counselling session, which it would as we know. If the comparator was intended by the act to be a man this would be irrelevent.

the notes also say: This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.

It's pretty clear that that the act is intended to apply to trans access to single sex spaces on the basis of reassigned gender.

**"Just wait till gene hacking and stem cell treatments start being used to modify bodies, this whole row is going to look rather quaint and archaic."

Can you imagine what would happen to the human race if all the women suffering oppression, mutilation,death and rape because of their sex, opted out of being female! Brave New World indeed.

Sorry quote should have been in bold

Just wait till gene hacking and stem cell treatments start being used to modify bodies, this whole row is going to look rather quaint and archaic.

They are going to be very disappointed if they think this will change a man into a woman, make them grow a uterus, ovaries or vagina, change the shape of their pelvis, alter their lung volume, make them smaller etc.