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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Gender Critical = fundamentally right wing (according to Vox)

574 replies

TheRealMcKenna · 29/09/2020 17:34

I know it’s Vox, I know it’s not a ‘reputable’ news source, but this is hilariously bad.

Main points:

  • TERFs calling themselves ‘gender critical’ are akin to white supremacists calling themselves ‘race realists’.
  • Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex.
  • Most ‘decent’ feminists include trans women in their movement, but a horrid bunch of conservative-allying pro-life supporting homophobic white supremacists don’t.
  • GC feminists Who rely on ‘science’ have abandoned the idea that chromosomes determine sex (this is news to me)
  • GC feminism is mainly a UK phenomenon and is ‘whipped up’ by the horrid Mumsnet site. Everyone else in the world is lovely (apart from those far right pro-life conservatives).
  • GC feminists cite a tiny number of high profile cases to whip up fear and hatred of trans women.
  • GC advocates bully people online, especially on Twitter.
  • GC academics have a terribly large amount of power and influence.

www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

OP posts:
EarthSight · 29/09/2020 21:51

@CloudyVanilla

Honestly I agree with them.

It was actually me realising when talking with a friend who turned out to be an MRA and realising that out views on trans people aligned, and then realised that yes the hard right have a similar opinion of trans men and women that made me rethink.

Not a popular view on MN but there are feminists who are not trans exclusive. My favourite internet community is now the Witched vs the Patriarchy sub reddit.

Hitler was a vegetarian and liked pets. I'm sure he would be aligned with many pet lovers today? Does that mean that pet lovers should stop loving their pets or abandon them?
MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/09/2020 21:53

I can get you the majority of them come from hetero cis men and not some TRA trolls

How do you tell the difference?

nepeta · 29/09/2020 21:56

From the main points by OP:
"Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex."

This is utterly untrue. Women are oppressed first and foremost on the basis of biological sex.

Currently our ability to name the category which consists of female-bodied people (those who will meet sexism and other sex-based ills) is contested by the trans rights activists and their allies.

It will be exceedingly difficult to do feminist work if we cannot name the category of those who are discriminated against sex. This is ironic as sexism and misogyny do not ask for someone's preferred pronouns before choosing their prey so it is not only those who accept the label 'woman' who will be harmed by this.

As far as I can see, the erasure of the female sex and all terms meaning female-bodied people is regarded as an important part of trans rights. I draw the line here concerning my willingness to be kind and inclusive and will not relinquish our ability to define what a biologically female person is.

EarthSight · 29/09/2020 21:57

@TheRealMcKenna

CloudyVanilla in that longest paragraph of your last post I counted four occasions when you pointed out that trans women were either biologically male or biologically not female. In the eyes of TRAs and those who buy into Queer Theory, that makes you transphobic. They believe trans women are biologically women.

Welcome to the far right.

Indeed. How is one meant to take such accusations of TERFISM when even believing in sex binary, in single sex spaces can get you labelled as transphobic? It's just a crude insult that they just slap onto anyone.
CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 21:57

@HecatesHat are you saying that trans women through history and the modern day have not been victimised? I assume that's what you mean when you ask "where's the victimisation?".

I don't even see where debate lies if no one is willing to step away from their lack of acceptance. To you marginilsing an entire community of people based on the actions of the few as justification. In my book that is the definition of bigotry.

I might muster a post or two more but the logic on this thread is full of double think and logical fallacies, anecdotes and what ifs to justify intolerance. I'm still yet to hear any empirically justified arguments as to why it is so important and justified to be so vocally transphobic. Because there aren't any valid arguments to be bigoted, ever.

HecatesHat · 29/09/2020 21:59

are you saying that trans women through history and the modern day have not been victimised

No, I'm not saying that.

FloralBunting · 29/09/2020 22:05

Why is wanting women only provision bigotry? Of necessity, it means that in specific circumstances, all men are excluded.

The travails of TW are sad and may well necessitate specific provision. But there is no logical reason for them to access female only provision in those areas specifically set aside for women, because that provision is not based on inner identity, but sex. How is this illogical or unreasonable?

CaraDuneRedux · 29/09/2020 22:13

I am more concerned about the victimisation of women throughout history, continuing into the present day.

Femicide. Sexual violence. Sex-selective abortion. Female infanticide. FGM. Forced marriage. Denial of reproductive rights. The flip-side of that - poor maternity care.

Sort those things out. Create a world where we no longer need sex-segregated spaces, because men have stopped being violent.

Then we'll talk.

CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 22:20

I am also concerned about that stuff. Infinitely more so than the trans debate. Those things have nothing to do with the trans debate. Yet all that is ever posted on here is stuff about trans issues. The irony of telling ME to focus on that instead of the victimisation of trans people...

Thelnebriati · 29/09/2020 22:25

Women are not victimising trans people.
The article is not accurate.

nepeta · 29/09/2020 22:27

@CloudyVanilla

I am also concerned about that stuff. Infinitely more so than the trans debate. Those things have nothing to do with the trans debate. Yet all that is ever posted on here is stuff about trans issues. The irony of telling ME to focus on that instead of the victimisation of trans people...
All those issues are to do with the female body and to address them we need to keep some way of defining the category of people who are exposed to such horrors. If we are losing our ability to name the victims because of the gender identity usage of terms such as women then the two issues are related.

It's true that the connection is not to transgender people but to the theory currently used by many trans activists (gender identity school). But that theory is problematic because it erases the identity of those who are subject to such horrors.

DoctorTwo · 29/09/2020 22:27

Hello @CloudyVanilla I thought the lack of rape threats against me would clearly point to me being male.

I will add: I don't post in this section very often (not my space), but I thank you all for making me think and learn through what is posted here.

When I joined MN I was told to avoid AIBU, The Doghouse and FWR. I looked at FWR and found wonderful women like Dittany and MildlyNarkyPuffin who were welcoming to this ignorant oik. This is my favourite part of MN and I read it every day. I might only post once a month but I am open to learning from women. Feminism is theirs, not mine. All I can do is stand alongside and cheerlead.

I do swerve The Doghouse still, but The Litter Tray has #Olly and #Paws. And other gorgeous felines. #crazycatman

HecatesHat · 29/09/2020 22:28

@CloudyVanilla

I am also concerned about that stuff. Infinitely more so than the trans debate. Those things have nothing to do with the trans debate. Yet all that is ever posted on here is stuff about trans issues. The irony of telling ME to focus on that instead of the victimisation of trans people...
I was asking you to explain what you mean by the victimisation of trans people in this context?
MichelleofzeResistance · 29/09/2020 22:30

f a Muslim lady cannot use a gender neutral toilet for fear of encountering a trans woman then she cannot use a women's only toilet either because a trans woman still has an equal right to be there.

It's interesting that your passionate engagement with and understanding of the particular issues faced by TW doesn't extend to engaging with or understanding the particular issues faced by some Muslim women. (Or Jewish Orthodox women, Jehovah's Witness women, Roma women, women with a history of rape and trauma, some women with Autism.... etc etc)

The issue is that if a male person needs to use the female space as their alternative to their sex based provision, that female person has no provision. At all. The female provision no longer meets inclusively the needs of all people. So presumably you're ok with the exclusion of those females from any space, and those females suffering the consequences of that exclusion.

I'm not ok with it. I'm not ok with TW being forced to use male spaces that leave them feeling unsafe, their privacy and dignity invaded, to be uncomfortable in a space where people may not respond well to them. AND I extend the exact same standards to female people. My answer would be third gender neutral spaces in addition to female only spaces, because these values and compassions cannot be selectively applied and still mean anything.

CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 22:44

@MichelleofzeResistance my compassion does of course extent to religious people, even though I myself am against religious practices that are detrimental to women by being segregative or otherwise misogynistic.

I was staying fact, not my opinion.. A poster said that their evidence against be8ng inclusive of trans women was that they knew a Muslim woman who could not use gender neutral toilets for religious reasons. Given the context of the discussion, I took this to mean that the posters point was she could not use gender neutral toilets in case a trans woman used them too.

My point was that by that logic, the Muslim woman would also not be able to use toilets designated for women because trans women already have the right to enter toilets which align with their chosen gender identity. I was not arguing against gender neutral toilets at all. The poster said, or implied, that the introduction of gender neutral toilets (presumably again given the context of the conversation) to appease trans women was detrimental to Muslim women. If because of religious reasons it is unacceptable to both create gender neutral toilets and continue to allow transgender women to use female toilets, I would say that it is disproportionately unfair on trans women and therefore felt it was right that the compromise was that the gender neutral toilets did exist. I'm not sure how that equates to me being dispassionate to religious women.

Again though these are incredibly niche and narrow aspects of life with relatively small consequences, and I stand by the belief that if gender neutral public toilets that some very religious individuals refuse to use are one of the reasons to exclude trans women, then I think it is a worthy sacrifice to those women's convenience.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/09/2020 22:51

I dispute your repeated assertion that trans women have the right to use the toilets which align with their gender identity.

Nevertheless, to engage with your further point, In that circumstance you think the woman should be the one to make the sacrifice and not the trans woman?

Goosefoot · 29/09/2020 23:03

Very true, but genderism is based on sex stereotypes which IMO puts it ideologically on the (religious) right. It has emboldened people who would rather "trans away the gay".

I'm not convinced that it's particularly of the right or left in any traditional sense of those terms. The fact is that most people on both the left and right think there are some natural behavioural level differences between men and women, and accept some level of cultural expression of sex. At the same time, most people on both the right and left don't see those as anything like wholly determinate or meaning men and women are wholly different. The groups that see very stark differences aren't all that large or mainstream.

littlbrowndog · 29/09/2020 23:09

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CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:10

I don't understand. Legally trans men and women have a default right to use a public toilet that matches their gender identity, not their biological gender. As far as I'm aware this has been the case since at least 2010. Has this changed?

Are you asking me that if an individual woman asserts that due to her religious beliefs, both gender neutral toilets and single sex toilets that allow access to trans women are both unacceptable options, you're asking me whether I would side with her on that? Well no, I don't think that it's fair and also don't think it would stand legally. It may be a grey area in law because it's obviously a direct conflict of interest but if you're asking me personally, someone's gender identity would come for me above someone's extreme religious beliefs. And I say extreme because like I said, as far as I'm aware it has been a long time that trans women have been allowed to access women's toilets and I have never heard before of religious women en masse being unable to use public toilets due to this fact.

I do think you are hanging on to a very very specific and tiny issue that clearly to you seems to both prove that I am some sort of misogynist and also proves that trans women are a huge threat to women's rights due to this toilet use. Like the majority of women refuse to use toilets on religious beliefs.

CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:12

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FWRLurker · 29/09/2020 23:15

If trans women do have the right since 2010 to use the single sex toilet of the opposite sex, does that extend to locker rooms? Hospital wings? Sports? If not, why not?

littlbrowndog · 29/09/2020 23:15

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MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/09/2020 23:17

I don't understand. Legally trans men and women have a default right to use a public toilet that matches their gender identity, not their biological gender. As far as I'm aware this has been the case since at least 2010. Has this changed?

That was not and is not the case. That would amount to self-id, which is not in legal in the UK.

CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:18

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wellbehavedwomen · 29/09/2020 23:21

@CloudyVanilla

You've also massively extrapolated a lot of that and downright misrepresented a lot of what I said. I never said I valued male feelings more than female feelings. When asking for data or evidence that the social acceptance of trans women would be detrimental to women, I was given an anecdotal example of gender neutral toilets and a Muslim woman. My point was if both being transgender and religion are abstract and debatable ideas, then why is it automatically the right of the religious person to take precedent?

Again, you've said I've dismissed "evidence" but no one has given me ANY evidence. Quite the contrary. I have mentioned that the vast majority of male violence to women is perpetrated by males known to or close to the victim. Trans women are at an even higher risk of this violence. But proportionately it's still a much more pressing issue to you to focus on excluding trans women from environments, many of which they already have a legal right to be in and there is no resulting wealth of evidence that trans women are doing significant harm to women.

I have mentioned that the vast majority of male violence to women is perpetrated by males known to or close to the victim. Trans women are at an even higher risk of this violence.

Why is it, then, that women are murdered by those close to them at a rate of 2 a week in normal times, 5 in lockdown, yet trans women have half the average murder risk? Who determines that trans women face 'an even higher risk of this violence'? How is that violence recorded and reported, and who's to say, as you so confidently do, that it's worse than that against women? 13000 men in jail for sex offences, mostly against women - that's 1 in 2500 men in the population - and yet only 1.5% of the reports of rape made to police ever see charges, far less convictions. Do you really imagine most women report? So where does that blithely confident statement come from? Stonewall? What's the source of your own stats?

One in fifty in the male prison estate identify as trans, as of 2018. In 2016, when the numbers asserting that identity from prison were far lower, 60 transwomen were jailed for sex offending from a population estimated to be 200,000, whereas just 126 women were, from a population of 33 million. Rhona Hotchkiss, who was a prison governor in Scotland, has said that there are now more transwomen in jail there for sex offending than women - NOT because transwomen pose more threat than any other male, but because they pose the exact same threat. Those stats align with the numbers of male sex offenders, when you calculate respective populations. So why are transwomen fine in spaces where women are vulnerable, when other males aren't - and in fact, in the case of prisons, where the United Nations mandates males must not be, as a basic human rights standard for women? What's the difference, from the perspective of women's best interests, instead of focusing on the best interest of the males in the equation?

Male bodies pose a threat to female bodies. Gender identity doesn't alter that. And given gender identity is also both subjective and unprovable, you're saying that women must accept a subset of males as female solely because they say so, and accept an exponentially higher risk rate than that posed by female women. How is that okay? Why are you placing the ease of a small group of male people higher than the safety of a large group of female people?

Of course it's just a small subset of transwomen who pose any sort of risk. It's a small subset of all males. But because we don't know which they are, but we do know women pose a very low risk indeed, we exclude all males from spaces where females are vulnerable, not because we think all men are hideous predators, but because some are, and excluding them means assaults and attacks on women are sharply reduced. Given the risk factor is exactly the same with males, irrespective of how they may identify, just how many women are you prepared to dismiss, as collateral damage? Women already exist who have been harmed in direct consequence of these policies. Why is that not as important? Why are they not as important?

Were you aware that a vast majority of women prisoners are there for property crime, while most men are there for violent offending? That most jailed women have been assaulted and abused by men long before they ever reached a prison, over half in childhood, and that there are huge levels of mental distress already, which mean they are retraumatised by being locked in with males - any males, even the nicest, kindest and most sincere possible - because they know what a female body is, and it's gaslighting to tell them a male is a woman? Same, obviously, in women's shelters and rape crisis support services. Karen Ingala Smith has talked really movingly about that. Why don't you care about those women? Why is your concern focused on people of male biology?

When women understand that 80% of transwomen have no surgery and take no hormones at all, a majority start to say no, they don't want them in spaces where they're vulnerable, and actually come what may, they don't want female sporting competition open to male bodies on a basis of identity - with good reason. If you can't identify sex, and rights based on sex, you can't combat sexism. Misogyny isn't predicated on women's performance of gender. It's because of our sex. And once you start arguing that women have no right to sports or changing rooms or dorms or shelters or refuges of our own, as soon as a male person asserts a claim that a male body is less relevant than a subjective belief to have a feminine soul... then you're focusing on male wants, and dismissing female needs. As has been the case through history. How is that feminism? Clearly, it's not.

I care about all human beings. Everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. I recognise that trans people do face marginalisation, which must be addressed. Transphobia is real, and violently abusive men pose a threat to trans people, men and women alike, as they do women - yet instead of tackling that threat, all the hate is aimed at gender critical women. It's also fairly clear that there is economic disadvantage, as so many seeking a GRC are below the costs threshold (though given the overlap with mental health challenges and autism, it's hard to unpick a multi-factorial, complex picture enough to know that it's mainly down to transphobia... but I am certain that's a factor in too many cases, and in too many lives.) I also think that liberation movements have every right to centre the group they fight for - trans groups do, disability rights orgs do, and feminist orgs should. Yet women are being told it's our job to centre some people born male, even though they pose the same risk to us as any other male, because they're at risk from other males, and assert that their sex isn't relevant, just their belief about themselves. Why is that our responsibility? Why do we have to increase our own risk, and lose our own privacy and spaces, when all properly conducted polling shows that that is not what women want and they do not consent?

Women are also human. Women also matter. Women should have the final say on who gets to share communal changing spaces, and sleeping accommodation, and shelters and counselling support which has been designated single sex. And women should not be shamed for prioritising their own best interests, needs, and rights, in the face of a fullscale demand that they open them up to any male who asserts an unprovable, subjective, wholly personal belief. There is no human right to expose your cock to a group of naked women in a single-sex changing room or shower without their consent - yet that's precisely what's being claimed. It's completely lunatic, frankly.

And finally, your statement that sharing the above has always been the law, and that it has to be decided on a case by case basis when an exemption is applied? That comes from guidance from the EHRC, which they recently had to withdraw due to legal challenge. They aren't empowered to create law at their behest. Yet effectively, that's what they did. A Judicial Review is pending. So no, that's not anything like as clear as you believe it to be.