Gender Critical = fundamentally right wing (according to Vox)

[TheRealMcKenna]

I know it’s Vox, I know it’s not a ‘reputable’ news source, but this is hilariously bad.

Main points:

• TERFs calling themselves ‘gender critical’ are akin to white supremacists calling themselves ‘race realists’.
  
• Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex.
  
• Most ‘decent’ feminists include trans women in their movement, but a horrid bunch of conservative-allying pro-life supporting homophobic white supremacists don’t.
  
• GC feminists Who rely on ‘science’ have abandoned the idea that chromosomes determine sex (this is news to me)
  
• GC feminism is mainly a UK phenomenon and is ‘whipped up’ by the horrid Mumsnet site. Everyone else in the world is lovely (apart from those far right pro-life conservatives).
  
• GC feminists cite a tiny number of high profile cases to whip up fear and hatred of trans women.
  
• GC advocates bully people online, especially on Twitter.
  
• GC academics have a terribly large amount of power and influence.
  

www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

I'll comment with an anecdote on your behalf, Wines, as I've never yet been deleted for mentioning my first hand experience.

My ex (as many here know) identifies as an autogynephile. He reports having at times been preoccupied with whether this means he is a woman in a man's body, and is grateful to have had this confusion resolved by an understanding of radical feminism.

He freely admits that, had he been encouraged to do so, he would likely have eventually gone down the transition route.

It's not the sole reason males transition, and I don't believe anyone ever said it was, but nevertheless it may be a factor in some cases.

[Winesalot]

Threads started by trans women usually descend into shit slinging pretty quickly. Any thread started here that is started with the intent to berate and shame women will generally be not well received. And why should it be well received here? it is not well received anywhere on MN.

Only last night we had a poster who wanted to discuss that a women's place was in the kitchen. I offered recipes and a biscuit. Others did as well. Not one of us abused the poster and the thread was deleted. There was nothing slung and that happens most weeks. There are however posters that continue to engage only superficially, sometimes not taking the time to read a post but pounce and declare it phobic and hateful. Lots of those!

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Threads started by trans women usually descend into shit slinging pretty quickly. The last one of those I read was a transwoman eplxaining why we had to accept she was as female as we are. Didn't go down well.

The one before that a brave attempt at an AMA... that got heated and did eventually get deleted because of trolls/monitors and strident ripostes.

That's what happens when a man enters a female space and the women already in there refuse to accept his version of reality! He gets to act all offended and the women get asked to apologise for not being nice!

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

Goose I agree, but I'd suggest that the reason stereotype feels like the wrong word is that we're taught to believe that stereotypes are inherently bad.

Stereotyping isn't an intrinsically evil thing. It's just what minds do. It becomes a problem when we insist that people conform to them instead of recognising that a stereotype is merely a shorthand to aid navigation through the world.

Sophocles is right though, we're veering way off-topic!

[Winesalot]

TyroBurningDownTheCloset

Thank you. I had forgotten. I was going to write something about why is it considered fine that a women may have to do a body search on a person who was using the experience as an erotic encounter because they had declared their identity as female. Or the refuges with masturbating transwomen sharing rooms and how that was including women to heighten the encounter. (And these are experiences that are being discussed as happening right now) But I will leave it to you.

[DickKerrLadies]

Feminists defend single-sex spaces because women need them, not because we want to make non-female people unhappy.

YY.

Somewhat on topic, this is one of the areas where I see similarities between MRAs and TRAs. MRAs seem to think that feminism is about punishing men rather than being something that doesn't really involve men at all (I know! Can you imagine?! Women, eh?).

--

Only last night we had a poster who wanted to discuss that a women's place was in the kitchen. I offered recipes and a biscuit.

I wish those sort of threads were locked rather than deleted as I think even those of us here all the time quite often would be surprised at the sheer amount of goady fuckery that goes on. That and there's always some great recipes.

[Winesalot]

That and there's always some great recipes. There are some great recipes swapped on those threads. We should compile a good book on trolling recipes!

Again, I wanted to point out that the poster was not threatened with a penis (and no aroused penis shots were posted to reinforce the threat), told to die in a grease fire, or even fuck off.

Getting back to left wing or right wing.... I tend to avoid those wings altogether, they get a bit too crispy for me to chew over. I do like a drumstick though.

[CloudyVanilla]

It's a false dichotomy though.

You can be against trans women in single sex spaces without being transphobic. You can acknowledge that predatory men can take advantage of budding laws and self identification without stipulating that all or most trans women are perverts. It's not separated out here at all.

[CloudyVanilla]

Somewhat on topic, this is one of the areas where I see similarities between MRAs and TRAs. MRAs seem to think that feminism is about punishing men rather than being something that doesn't really involve men at all (I know! Can you imagine?! Women, eh?).

This is very true. MRA men are very threatened by feminism, it's unnerving to hear especially young and otherwise intelligent men talk about women and their genetically programmed "monkey branching" and how women don't really want to work. Astonishing really.

[Winesalot]

You can acknowledge that predatory men can take advantage of budding laws and self identification without stipulating that all or most trans women are perverts. It's not separated out here at all.

Maybe we have been discussing these issues for so long, we do not preface our opinions with 'Not all transwomen are like that'. I have not come across regular posters who think that all or most transwomen are perverts. That is why we are continuing to discuss with you despite the fact that other posters only ever seem to be here to shame us and never answer any questions.

I appreciate that you are answering questions. However, I see that you so often use blanket statements that are just not true. I think you would see that if you properly engage with posters and actually answer questions asked. Instead, I think that you are actually in agreeance on some things but you continue to pull the 'phobic' card.

You brought up the simulated still birth thread, do you honestly not see the harm that that person did to women in that group? The thread discusses that person's actions and notes that there is a growing number of people who are appropriating pregnancy and support groups for their own uses that are not genuine.

Can you please tell me why you don't believe this person's actions are harmful to women? And tell me how you would like women, some of who have recently experienced the event this person is simulating, should respond that you would be comfortable with?

[Winesalot]

who are appropriating pregnancy and support groups for their own uses that are not genuine. And by 'genuine' I mean that they are not pregnant or in the target group that needs that support group. Not that they don't 'exist'!

[CloudyVanilla]

@CuriousaboutSamphire and @TyroBurningDownTheCloset your attempts to be disparaging of my views gave me a good chuckle but you're not engaging genuinely or in good faith so I'm not engaging further in discussions like that.

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

You can be against trans women in single sex spaces without being transphobic.

Yes, we know.

You might do better to direct this at the trans-identified males who threaten rape and death to any female who points this out.

It's also worth remembering that we have tried, repeatedly, to make a distinction between predatory males and dysphoric males. No matter what language we use to do this, we are derided as transphobes.

It's not us who lump the fetishists in with the dysphoric transsexuals.

[SophocIestheFox]

You can be against trans women in single sex spaces without being transphobic

I’m not sure that’s true, cloudy . I completely agree that one can be, but any campaigning I have done on keeeping the single sex exemptions in the Equality Act exactly as they are, have been met with howls of “TRANSPHOBIA!”. So no, many people don’t think I should be free to say that, and they’re not shy about telling me so. And look at JKR - that’s pretty much the substance of what she’s said, and look now that turned out. So no, actually I don’t think women are permitted that in the present climate

it’s not separated out here at all - it really is. We’re at pains here to, for example, distinguish between children and adults in trans experiences, dysphoric and non dysphoric people, male and female people, rather than just the bludgeoning of “acceptance without exception”. Nobody here is saying all trans women are perverts, and it makes it really hard to have productive conversations with baseless accusations flying like that.

[SophocIestheFox]

Crossposts, tyro and wines! I’m typing really slowly today...

[CloudyVanilla]

@Winesalot I can't see any general statements that either are general by nature because they are ideas rather than tangible facts or examples, or that are summarised ideas. I would appeal to self reflection. Validation of ones views is easy in an echo chamber. But even MN has guidelines against calling TW men, yet you've said you all hold the opinion that they are, and I'm not the only ones who get strong vibes of transphobia. I think you know that though really. Google mumsnet transphobia and see all the threads that come up taking about it, or even news articles about it. Listen to what other posters say too. Sure we are in the minority but I've had private messages agreeing with me, I suppose though it is considered a very hostile environment to express dissenting views in.

And with respect not always because The responders are "unapologetically feminist", but because posters are aggressive, obtuse and tend to pile on against posters who dissent.

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

Just because I'm frustrated, Cloudy, doesn't mean I'm not attempting to engage in good faith.

Good faith engagement requires an effort on both sides to find mutual understanding. This by necessity involves attempting to clarify one another's meaning where this is not immediately obvious.

If you're going to characterise attempts to ascertain the meaning behind your words as not in good faith then there is indeed little point continuing.

[Winesalot]

I completely agree that one can be, but any campaigning I have done on keeeping the single sex exemptions in the Equality Act exactly as they are, have been met with howls of “TRANSPHOBIA!”.

In fact, didn't I read the Lib Dems have included that in their description of the what falls under the term. Meaning that any discussion about setting aside any rights for women that doesn't include all women (and there is that demand to use that word in their policy which can then be read into legislation one day) is phobia!

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

I'm not engaging bin good faith??

Fucking hell! Except for the obvious irony I've done nothing but type out a lot of considered responses and that is your only comment!!!

[SophocIestheFox]

But cloudy, whether it is kind or otherwise, it is a necessary precondition of being a trans woman that one is born male, yes?

I was born female. Can I be a trans woman? If not, why not?

How is that transphobic?

I have listened, and reflected, I’ve read information from stonewall, mermaids, gendered intelligenc,e, GIREs, wpath, and too many to count. I’ve talked to trans people, families of trans people, detransitioned people. I started off a trans ally. However I got here, it’s not that I don’t know what the beliefs are.

I just don’t agree.

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

I was born female. Can I be a trans woman? If not, why not?

Alas, you cannot. Because this is not an ideology that holds with the rules of English grammar.

And, of course, because the prefix trans preceding woman indicates male. As Cloudy knows damn well.

[Winesalot]

But even MN has guidelines against calling TW men, yet you've said you all hold the opinion that they are

No. I have said very clearly that transwomen are transwomen. They are also male.

I have also explained why language is vital for legislation and I have asked you to explain your thinking on how social usage of a term can continue to be protected under law when overtime, the social usage negates the legal meaning.

There is plenty of allegations about what MN is and isn't. Let's be very clear about what is phobic. Because, it seems that you are very much of the opinion that as a society we should accept the change in language and call transwomen women except for legislation. And that anything else is hate. So, I will try again. Please explain how you feel we can discuss our rights without using the terms transwomen and male?

I am constantly asking you to clarify and you simply don't bother answering which is of course your right, but it does indicate an unwillingness to actually engage.

[SophocIestheFox]

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

I was born female. Can I be a trans woman? If not, why not?

Alas, you cannot. Because this is not an ideology that holds with the rules of English grammar.

And, of course, because the prefix trans preceding woman indicates male. As Cloudy knows damn well.

Alas indeed.

Am tickled by the phrase “Vibes of transphobia” - sounds like one of Pink Floyds less successful prog rock albums.

[Winesalot]

I would appeal to self reflection.

yes, perhaps that would be good for both of us it seems.

[InspiralCoalescenceRingdown]

What I find most interesting about this thread is how @wellbehavedwomen posted multiple thorough posts detailing the GC feminist argument, complete with links to sources, and there has been no engagement with those posts from pro-gender identity posters. That gives the game away somewhat.

As to the actual argument - that we're aligned with the far right? I mean, so what? The far right are opposed to Muslim rape gangs (e.g. Rotherham). My question to @CloudyVanilla, et al.:

Are you aligned with the far right in opposing rape gangs or are you in favour of rape gangs?

If we want to play these silly guilt-by-assocation games further - let's bring up Iran. Trans people can legally change their sex in Iran, but there is the death penalty for homosexual sex.

Are pro-gender identity posters happy to be aligned with a state that executes people for being gay?