I ❤️ J K Rowling Spreading across USA

[Winesalot]

Now in Salt Lake City, Utah.

twitter.com/christophelston/status/1309685206283030528?s=21

‘ Salt Lake City loves JK Rowling! ❤️

Thank you to our new friend who has decided to take a stand for JK, for women and children, and for the State of Utah.

Sir, you are the best. Those 15 boards throughout the State have never looked so good!’ 26/9/20

Apparently the San Francisco billboard is was up today and seen by 1/2 million drivers.

And they are going up in about more 40 locations in the USA according to Chris.

Thank you Chris and the donors. I think there is a bit of crowd funding happening too.

I get very frustrated with the claim constantly thrown about that people with a trans identity have a very high rate of suicide and self-harm. Apart from the fact that it's irresponsible to keep mentioning this, and against all the careful guidance from the Samaritans, it's such an over-simplification of what would seem to be a very complex area.

From what I've read, decades of research (before ROGD became a big factor) show that people who transition are likely to have at least one of the following:

• early history of sexual abuse
• early experience of family trauma, e.g. parents split up, poor relationship with at least one parent/step--parent, bereavement, loss of a sibling, witnessing and/or experiencing domestic violence
• on the autistic spectrum
• ADHD
• anxiety/depression/OCD
• bullied at school
• bullied at home
• same-sex attracted, especially where the family or peer group are homophobic
• coming from a home/community with rigid gender stereotypes, which would make most normal youngsters feel on edge

Any single one of those factors could lead in due course to self-harm. Many people sadly have several of them.

My tentative conclusion from the little I've read about research on long-term outcomes of transition is that it is beneficial for some. However, if you go into this with ongoing mental health problems or a lifelong conditon like ASD, transition isn't going to be a magic bullet, and my fear would be that sometimes desperate people convince themselves that it will be, and then feel terribly let down.

The research also needs to be carefully read to establish how they define transition - just social, or social plus medical treatment, and if the latter, which specific treatments? The side effects of some of the medical treatments are horrendous, and the results of surgery leave a lot to be desired in many cases. More barriers to long-term happiness and contentment.

TL:DR - if there are high rates of self-harm amongst trans people, maybe it's not just because of bigotry in society, maybe this group has a lot of other risk factors too.

On Suicide:

www.genderhq.org/trans-youth-suicide-statistics-kill-themselves-manipulate-parents?fbclid=IwAR3OgKxh0YxYKqqH5uYcZvuP3Cc8tzWuX9mZw7sjq6DsJJiAiQ4hRktrm2A

That's a round up of a lot of research on Suicide and some analysis as much of it is flawed or subject to different biases.

Transition doesn't appear to be the holy grail for all though and particularly can make depression and suicidal ideation worse for young natal born women.

But every is an individual so it's extremely hard to give blanket statements.

Essentially though, gatekeeping is incredibly important.

And transition or die is weaponised.

More analysis on suicide stats:

www.womenarehuman.com/seeking-the-truth-about-teen-suicides-and-puberty-blockers/

Also, medical transition doesn't improve mh outcomes:

www.womenarehuman.com/sex-reassignment-treatment-does-not-improve-mental-health-journal-issues-correction/

she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions.

Indeed. There are only a few places where women need same sex provision. Usually when they are vulnerable (getting undressed, homeless shelter, having a smear, in hospital), or recovering from male violence (rape refuge, women's aid shelter) or in power competitions like sport. Or where they can't escape, like prison.

Male rapists, like Karen White in the pic, have been housed in female prisons (and assaulted the inmates), rape refuges have lost government funding for remaining female only, men are masturbating in bed next to women in women's aid shelters, there are numerous men competing as women in power sport and a women was called a transphobic bigot for objecting to a male wanting to do her smear.

There are countless threads on here with stats and evidence to support women's rights to privacy, dignity and safety.

We're not new to this. It's not about trans people. It's about the erosion of women's rights.

@bettybeans

I love this a whole lot but I'm also a little nervy about making love for JKR synonymous with a broad set of political ideas, some of which she will agree with and some that she perhaps won't. It takes her agency away to some extent. She's given up a whole lot to support women who weren't being heard and that's great, but we shouldn't exploit that too much or take advantage of it. She speaks for herself and it's so powerful when she does, there's ways to build on that without just attaching her name to it. I worry that she'll be forced to retreat if/when she loses control of how her name is being used.

That's my thoughts on it.

Precisely this.

JK Rowling's statement was very carefully expressed to show that she is tolerant of people with different views, and tolerant of those who are suffering from gender dysphoria, but that she feels a need to speak up for women's rights and women's spaces.

This runs the risk of having her initial brave stand stolen by people who then want to use it to express intolerance.

This runs the risk of having her initial brave stand stolen by people who then want to use it to express intolerance.

When and if, this starts to show itself, I will want a front row seat for the fireworks. She is not a Lightweight

Well, yes, the fireworks would be interesting - but opening a political movement which finally seems to be getting somewhere in resisting the TRA juggernaut up to the usual Monty Pythonesque accusations of "splitters, etc.", not so good.

As a counter suggestion - if you think trans people might be prone to mental health issues including suicide ideation, do you think you should risk telling them all the time that lots of trans people commit suicide and that the whole world, including their favourite childhood author, hates them and wishes they were dead?

I agree. I think it's irresponsible in the extreme to bandy the alleged suicide stats about.

I found this FPFW article really interesting regarding the Stonewall stats that are used - mostly, it seems, to stop questions during an interview.

To quote the person who conducted the research 'It is indeed unfortunate that the findings from the study have been misinterpreted, even when this is something that happens often when research is used by non-scientists in the context of their own agendas.'

fairplayforwomen.com/suicide/

Re the stats

How about the ones about women's experiences with creepy men.

The experiences that lead us to think allowing men into women's spaces-that exist for safety and privacy- on their say so is asking for trouble for women. And the fact that saying this is what has led to women being threatened with rape, death. Has led to revenue being removed from Mumsnet. Has led to women losing their jobs. And so on.

Tone deaf poster on here.

Also, the poster just says I love JKR. She didn't put up the original one (that would be rather narcissistic!). The poster could mean anything. It's as innocuous as you can get.

I'm nervous that a man is taking control of it. A man who is never knew of before he did.

I agree with this, feels..odd somehow.

It’s irresponsible of JKR to anoint herself as an authority on this issue

She never did this. She gave her opinion on a topic that affects her and millions of women like her. Thats it. That its the 'wrong' opinion according to some..matters not, she still is not setting herself as any authority..simply speaking on a topic that matters to her.

I find it odd that jkr is accused of setting herself up as an authority for saying a few things while so many much more official groups have decided they can speak as an authority as to why women who have any concerns are hateful bigots and that's AOK.

she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions.

Very happy for trans people to have trans-only shelters, or shelters just for MTF trans people and for FTM trans people. It's extremely naive to assume that's what TRAs want or that women are in any way obstructing this goal.

If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true?

Signs of an abuser tbh, weaponizing suicide in such a way. I had an ex who did this, and I stayed with him for years more than I should as I believed that if I left I would 'cause' his death. Of course, it would never have been me, had he chosen to do it. Blaming feminists for the (possible) suicides of transpeople is therefor fucking gross to me tbh. But oddly common..which always interests me. Do as we say or you are literally causing deaths, give up your rights or you are basically a murderer

It's extremely naive to assume that's what TRAs want or that women are in any way obstructing this goal.

Indeed. It may be what some transwomen want or even what many may want to have shelters and spaces of their own In the UK. However, that does not seem to be the case because when it is suggested, it is rejected outright as ‘othering’ and not giving the ‘equality’ they deserve apparently.

Since I started talking about this, I have seen the same from 'this side'. That women would campaign alongside TRAs if what they wanted was trans specific services. The issue is that what they are fighting for will actively take away from women. There seems to be an assumption that women are just being awkward and trying to stop trans people getting any help, thats never been the case. We just won't give up OUR rights. I know I would march alongside TRAs if they were pressuring for trans specific shelters/changing rooms/whatever (once they dropped the rampant misogyny of course, currently with how they behave I would not feel even slightly safe, even if 'on their side'), would also contribute to crowdfunders and help in any way that I could.

domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their
abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions

Have yet to see any person male or female stopping trans shelters/prisons/hospital wards et al from coming into being.
I mean no way now would I fundraise, but i wouldn't actively prevent fundraising from happening. I wouldn't put spokes in the wheel if they decided to build a shelter/buy somewhere and convert to a shelter/build prisons just for trans/even whole hospitals for trans. It's all good, crack on with it already.
I could be persuaded to campaign for toilets for them, only because the quicker that happens the better for women, but that's about all. Too much bad blood gone by for me to actively help. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

I’m sorry your ex was so abusive, @BatShite. I think you’re advancing a straw man about my argument. Just because I’m urging caution in an issue that might have the possibility of increasing suicide, doesn’t mean trans rights is a Kafka trap. From what I understand, talking about suicide is more helpful than not: suicideprevention.nv.gov/Youth/Myths/
If you’re going to say it’s irresponsible for me to bandy about suicide stats for trans people, don’t you think it’s irresponsible to tweet about an issue without knowing whether the stats are correct or without conclusive evidence either way? Her entire essay was hypotheticals and anecdotes — why do you trust that over my stats? And for your anger over TRAs branding you all as TERFs, you sure like to stereotype just as boldly about TRAs. I’ve provided peer-reviews articles, you’ve provided an essay and an article from a website that is anti-trans (fairplayforwomen.com). My stats were at least from scientific journals.

Slightly off topic but does anybody know anything about the man responsible for these billboards? What are his politics besides being GC? It doesn’t matter to me as they’re not relevant to his support for women’s rights but I’m just curious.

If you’re going to say it’s irresponsible for me to bandy about suicide stats for trans people, don’t you think it’s irresponsible to tweet about an issue without knowing whether the stats are correct or without conclusive evidence either way

I don't think trans suicide stats come into it at all when you come at this froma protecting womens rights angle. I dont see why women should effectively be silenced on a matter that affects them because another group might have high suicide rates? So no, tbh I don't think its irresponsible to want to protect womens rights, even if those attacking them might possibly have high suicide rates.

Her entire essay was hypotheticals and anecdotes — why do you trust that over my stats?

Again, her essay was about her experiences, and womens rights. Your stats might well be right, its still irrelevant to me. I am sorry if trans people do have high suicide rates, I would suggest a possible reason for this is co-morbidities that get brushed under the carpet in favour of immediate affirmation and thinking transition will solve everything (I have read a study that said self harm rates were no different after transition once, couldnt remember where though, but used to be posted by trans groups) and ignori8ng the other issues at play, but regardless of the reason for it (if it is indeed true, which it may be) it has no bearing whatsoever on women speaking about their own experiences and wishing to retain the rights women currently have in law

And for your anger over TRAs branding you all as TERFs, you sure like to stereotype just as boldly about TRAs

I don't give a singular shit about being 'branded a TERF'. I DO care when a number of m,ens rights activists descend on my private messages telling me I should be raped, or my CHILDREN should be attacked as their mother is a bigoted cunt. I care when I find out said mens rights activists are making lists trying to find out the actual addresses of said bigoted cunts and compiling all data they can find. Aided by a Labour MP, if my memory serves correctly.

I’ve provided peer-reviews articles, you’ve provided an essay and an article from a website that is anti-trans

Hand well and truly shown here tbh. fairplayforwomen is 'antitrans'. So you are one of those who reckon defending womens rights (note, NOT taking away trans rights) is anti-trans. Not surprising given you came here ranting about JKs essay being transphobic without even reading it. Have you even read/understood the links you have posted by the way?

@danascully96

I’m sorry your ex was so abusive, *@BatShite. I think you’re advancing a straw man about my argument. Just because I’m urging caution in an issue that might* have the possibility of increasing suicide, doesn’t mean trans rights is a Kafka trap. From what I understand, talking about suicide is more helpful than not: suicideprevention.nv.gov/Youth/Myths/ If you’re going to say it’s irresponsible for me to bandy about suicide stats for trans people, don’t you think it’s irresponsible to tweet about an issue without knowing whether the stats are correct or without conclusive evidence either way? Her entire essay was hypotheticals and anecdotes — why do you trust that over my stats? And for your anger over TRAs branding you all as TERFs, you sure like to stereotype just as boldly about TRAs. I’ve provided peer-reviews articles, you’ve provided an essay and an article from a website that is anti-trans (fairplayforwomen.com). My stats were at least from scientific journals.

Forget about the stats, then.

Are you happy for male bodied individuals to be incarcerated with women prisoners, compete against women in power sport, deliver smear tests as women and be given access to specifically women's aid shelters and rape refuges?

Also talking about suicide does not = continually telling a group of people who have a high rate of mental health issues to start with..that others like them are likely to kill themselves. Nor does high suicide rates mean said group can do as they please else suicide may go up. Using suicide as a means of control is abusive.

I do find it interesting that many trans orgs insist on using (potentially false) suicide stats and parroting them everywhere, given the samaritans guidelines on such use of suicide though..

www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/media-guidelines/suicide-facts-journalists/

I said her tweets were irresponsible. I never mentioned her essay. I had only read the letter she and Atwood signed among a bunch of other authors. Why doesn’t she share research that confirms trans rights if she is truly in support and not just trying to prove a point? I’ve made my position clear and have even conceded some of your points. If my words are rants to you, then I’m going to fuck off. Thanks for the enlightening convo.