I ❤️ J K Rowling Spreading across USA

[Winesalot]

Now in Salt Lake City, Utah.

twitter.com/christophelston/status/1309685206283030528?s=21

‘ Salt Lake City loves JK Rowling! ❤️

Thank you to our new friend who has decided to take a stand for JK, for women and children, and for the State of Utah.

Sir, you are the best. Those 15 boards throughout the State have never looked so good!’ 26/9/20

Apparently the San Francisco billboard is was up today and seen by 1/2 million drivers.

And they are going up in about more 40 locations in the USA according to Chris.

Thank you Chris and the donors. I think there is a bit of crowd funding happening too.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

My initial reaction was that isn't Utah a very religiously right wing state? I'd worry about jk being used in the wrong way by people who don't help the main points.

Talking to an American recently who fully understands the debates around body image and brains not being stereotypically sexed etc but as she's in the thick of a Christian Right wing area, her natural default is more towards be kind than gender critical when it comes down to discussions around sports etc.

[danascully96]

While JKR certainly makes good points and there is strong research to suggest that we are really wading into the unknown when it comes to trans issues, I don’t understand why this is her crucible? Particularly when she is just as ignorant as everyone else on this issue. The research is still inconclusive and no one has all the answers about trans people, but we do know there is a high suicide rate within this population! It’s irresponsible of JKR to anoint herself as an authority on this issue. She is openly betraying her trans fans when they might’ve been loyal to her for years, having found refuge in the world she created. Women shouldn’t disappear from global narratives just as trans people shouldn’t — we can work together instead of falling prey to the age-old cliche of stepping on the neck of another minority for our own elevation. We don’t have to condemn the whole of the trans movements just because it isn’t perfect. But the feminism thread on here seems to constantly be an echo chamber of transphobia, so I’m sure my comment isn’t well-received.

[VictoriaLucas102]

Doing a bit of googling and looks like Chris Elston is (perhaps?) a Scientologist. Utah is the Mormon state which is very conservative.

[Winesalot]

I too have reservations about using Joanne Rowling’s name like this. However, I also think that by now she would certainly know this is happening and it is not like she couldn’t have a quiet word to stop it (not in the public view).

I think by now she would have reached out somehow to say ‘enough’. Not through legal action, just a well worded DM on twitter.

I do not believe she has directly sanctioned them in any way. But on the other hand, it also has a benefit of bringing attention to her new book. Which I am enjoying reading myself and surely the initial outcry has been deemed as over the top since so many have read it.

[Winesalot]

The research is still inconclusive and no one has all the answers about trans people, but we do know there is a high suicide rate within this population!

Have you got those statistics to hand? There has been a lot of false stats used in the past so I would like to see where you are drawing these stats from.

[danascully96]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acps.13164

These are two peer-reviewed studies I’ve found

[Winesalot]

we can work together instead of falling prey to the age-old cliche of stepping on the neck of another minority for our own elevation.

Are you implying women fighting to maintain their rights are stepping on transgender people’s necks and killing them? I think you have just proven your intention here.

[danascully96]

I’m saying we shouldn’t have to denigrate other social movements so that we can assert our rights. What did you think of the studies I shared? I’ve got another: psycnet.apa.org/record/2017-31802-001

[DancelikeEmmaGoldman]

but we do know there is a high suicide rate within this population!

Actually, we don’t know that at all. Although the claim is made often; the evidence is weak, particularly because claimed gender identity is not usually recorded on death certificates. The idea seems more a case of “sticky numbers” politicising suicide rates than reality.
www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Nor had JKR anointed herself an expert on tnis topic. She has, as is her right, her reflections on the importance of single sex spaces for women.

I commend her essay to you; assuming that you’ve not actually read it. The maunderings of affronted teenagers on Twitter in no way reflect the nuanced and thoughtful essay she actually wrote.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

[TheIncredibleBookEatingManchot]

@danascully96 I don't believe JKR has appointed herself as an authority on trans issues. She has simply made a few tweets and written a personal essay showing her point of view. If you read anything she has written on the subject you will see that she has no hatred for trans people.

Like a lot of people on this thread I'm a bit dubious about JKR's name being used in this way. It forces her to become a figurehead for a cause and also a figurehead for hatred for TRAs and while it doesn't seem to be harming her popularity as a writer I wonder if it makes her concerned for her and her family's safety.

[littlbrowndog]

Thanks Chris for doing this

[JellySlice]

I love this a whole lot but I'm also a little nervy about making love for JKR synonymous with a broad set of political ideas, some of which she will agree with and some that she perhaps won't. It takes her agency away to some extent.

OTOH "I ❤️ JK Rowling" does not state that you love all her ideas. You could love her because she created Harry Potter, you could love her because she created the Lumos charity, you could love her because of her other philanthropies, you could lover her because she pays her taxes, and still disagree with her on other issues.

This tag/statement/brand provides exactly the non-partisan, non-doctrinaire attitude that is needed in the debate about the conflict between trans requirements and women's rights. That you can support certain viewpoints without having to accept that they are synonymous with a broad set of political ideas.

Though, yes, once the statement is adopted by specific groups, it could unfortunately come to represent something that its originator did not intend - rather like the rainbow flag, for example.

[littlbrowndog]

This affects families not just women.

Sure if jk wants him to stop she can just ask him and sure she would

[Winesalot]

danascully

I will read them, just not on my phone. I cannot read large documents comfortably on a small screen. I am interested so keep posting.

I do think you went too far in your inference that women are stepping on necks though. And are you saying it is racially driven?

[Winesalot]

And in regard for suicide statistics, I hope they will also show comparisons with other sectors of the community and draw out before transition and after transition figures.

We have had at least one clinician who has indicated that the figures also reflect facts such as: people not having co-morbidities treated before transition or after which has significant affect, people realizing they have done something they cannot undo and that it was the incorrect treatment for them.

However, getting back to the thread, Joanne Rowling has been supportative of trans people. There are plenty who agree that she is not transphobic.

And if you see any transphobia here, please report it.

[highame]

This is the trouble with a cause. Instead of the focus being on moving forward, in this case taking back women's rights, suddenly we forget. A cause has to have a lead that becomes recognisable quickly. The JKR symbol is not about JKR, it is about a movement.

Do you really think a woman like JKR who was prepared to take on the baying twitter mob, would not be able to loudly withdraw her consent if she needed to.

If you think she couldn't or wouldn't do that, I'm afraid your view of strong powerful women is a little flawed

[Winesalot]

If you think she couldn't or wouldn't do that, I'm afraid your view of strong powerful women is a little flawed. agreed.

She would have stopped it if she chose to.

[danascully96]

Just finished reading the piece JKR wrote — thank you for sharing. Like I said, she makes good points and as a young person, I’m growing increasingly frustrated with my peers for casting aside their respect for civil liberties and critical thought because they’re afraid of coming across as bigoted. To be fair, JKR should know that Twitter isn’t the right platform to convey such a complicated message, especially when we don’t know anything other than hypotheticals and anecdotes. If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true? Are we willing to blast off a bunch of snippets of our beliefs that could inspire anti-trans hatred despite our good intentions? We have had many hate crimes against LGBT people, including murder, in the US: www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/27/us/transgender-women-deaths.amp.html

Also, the “gay/trans panic defense” can be used in court to avoid prosecution if someone kills an LGBT person because they can claim they momentarily lost their sanity when in the presence of an LGBT person: www.law.georgetown.edu/american-criminal-law-review/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2020/05/57-4-Lee-The-Trans-Panic-Defense-Revisited.pdf

As for Twitter, it’s already a fire-breathing dragon, so JKR shouldn’t be surprised by the onslaught of hate. She shouldn’t mischaracterize the trans movement based on the comment section of her Twitter posts. However, she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions. The same goes for gender reassignment — strict regulations and therapy should be put in place, but ultimately like any elective surgery, that’s a decision an adult has to make while also accepting the consequences.

You’re right that her good points get drowned out by the hysteria around trans issues amid a very divided society, which is deeply troubling. Thankfully science doesn’t bend to the will of Twitter — if the government funds trans studies, senseless ideologies won’t rule our society. Young people don’t vote in high enough numbers to drastically change anything. And in the US, Trump is not favorable toward LGBT people, so this dystopian world JKR is describing is unlikely to spill forth.

The same slippery slope arguments were made against gay people being threats to society, so I’m wary.

[Winesalot]

if the government funds trans studies, senseless ideologies won’t rule our society.

You won’t get any argument from me or most of the people on this board about more balanced and unbiased research. In the UK, the trans rights lobbyists have actively worked to shut down studies by stating that they may have a negative impact on transgender people.

We now have a lack of statistics. Even for suicides because these would require ‘outing’ transgender status. But how do you assess this when your hands are deliberately tied? And any discussion has been shut down with #nodebate. And many studies/statistics have been misinterpreted or misused (such as ones in the past based on a prize draw entry for a self selected survey) to perpetuate misinformation.

For example, how much higher are suicide statistics for transgender people versus other groups such as anorexia? Or another high rate group? There are cross overs, how are those addressed?

Addressing these issues gives clarity, yet so much effort is put into self id and access to women’s facilities. Why? Who does this actually benefit?

You say the same arguments were made against gay people. This is not wholly true. People who are gay, lesbian and bisexual did not seek to a) state that everyone should believe false statements such as people can change sex (even metaphorically), b) no surgical or chemical treatment was demanded and certainly not for children c) gay and lesbian people are now being told they are again not allowed to be attracted to same sex. All they demanded was their rightful right to not be discriminated against in law.

In the UK, what laws allow this discrimination against transgender people where it doesn’t cause harm for women?

[DancelikeEmmaGoldman]

danascully96 did you really and truly come here; accuse both JKR and FWR of transphobia, but hadn’t actually read Joanne Rowling’s essay. And now you contend that she should know better than express her opinion on Twitter? And that the vile threats she, and other women receive on Twitter are not surprising because they should have known better?

As for mischaracterising the trans community on the basis of Twitter hate.
Why wouldn’t you?

terfisaslur.com/

[OldCrone]

If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true?

What could we do about it if they are?

Are we willing to blast off a bunch of snippets of our beliefs that could inspire anti-trans hatred despite our good intentions?

I'm not sure how being wary of believing poorly evidence suicide statistics is likely to 'inspire anti-trans hatred'. Perhaps you could expand on this. And anti-trans hatred largely comes from males, who are often also homophobic and misogynistic, so I'm not sure what you think this has to do with women who want to protect their own rights.

she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions.

This is something that many of us on here agree with, but we are accused of transphobia for suggesting it.

The same goes for gender reassignment — strict regulations and therapy should be put in place, but ultimately like any elective surgery, that’s a decision an adult has to make while also accepting the consequences.

Again, you'll find a lot of agreement on here with this view. Medicating children and encouraging them to become lifelong medical patients is a different matter.

[OldCrone]

@danascully96

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acps.13164

These are two peer-reviewed studies I’ve found

From the first of these papers, which is a review of "the impact of race/ethnicity, education, and income on transgender individual's lifetime experience of suicidal thoughts and behaviors (SITB) in gray and published literature" these are some of the 'limitations' of the studies which were analysed (there are many more).

These findings are preliminary and lack generalizability for several reasons. The included studies rely heavily on self-reported SITBs and individual definition of “attempt” and “ideation” can vary a great deal, particularly when a definition is not provided and only a single question is used.

Participation bias, particularly in mental health research, is also an issue in recruitment and reporting of participants. ... More broadly, people who have experienced SITBs, or are in greater distress generally, may be more likely to participate in studies on this subject. Likewise, research undertaken on clinical populations, or only those with specific presenting issues, may find higher rates of SITBs than population or community-based samples.

Seems somewhat inconclusive.

The second one says:

We observed no increase in suicide death risk over time and even a decrease in suicide death risk in trans women. However, the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population and seems to occur during every stage of transitioning. It is important to have specific attention for suicide risk in the counseling of this population and in providing suicide prevention programs.

I haven't had time to read the whole paper so I'm not sure if there is a comparison made with suicide risk amongst other vulnerable or minority groups who also have a higher suicide risk than the general population. As you've read it, perhaps you could quote some of the relevant parts or give us a synopsis.

But even if there is a higher suicide risk amongst trans people, what has this got to do with women being allowed to retain their sex-based rights? Are you saying we should give up some of our rights because some men feel suicidal because we have those rights?

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

@danascully96
Rights don’t exist in a vacuum so when you give rights to one group you need to assess their impact on others. One of the issues that has caused concern in the U.K. is the changes demanded by some TRA undermined rights and protections for women. For example, single sex spaces are permitted in law and religious belief is a protected characteristic. If a male bodied person could self id into a female changing room what happens to those women, who, for religious reasons, cannot share a changing room with a male body. Is that religious discrimination as women have lost access to service provision that respected their protected religious beliefs?

[NecessaryScene1]

If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true? Are we willing to blast off a bunch of snippets of our beliefs that could inspire anti-trans hatred despite our good intentions?

The "could" in that sentence is doing a lot of work. What is your proposed mechanism for discussion about the impact of current gender ideology on vulnerable young girls and women in the UK leading to increased rate of male-committed homicide for male Brazilian transsexual prostitutes?

As a counter suggestion - if you think trans people might be prone to mental health issues including suicide ideation, do you think you should risk telling them all the time that lots of trans people commit suicide and that the whole world, including their favourite childhood author, hates them and wishes they were dead?

Doing that sort of thing seems to me to have a far bigger chance of harming vulnerable trans people.

JKR isn't the person "making trans kids feel unsafe". It's the trans activist lobby.

[SawingForTeens]

I'm still trying to get my head around pp's gall to post links that we should read, for our 'education' I guess, to better understand the irresponsibility of JKR's writings--- which pp had not yet read. And then call us all transphobes.

You’re right that her good points get drowned out by the hysteria around trans issues amid a very divided society, which is deeply troubling and as a young person, I’m growing increasingly frustrated with my peers for casting aside their respect for civil liberties and critical thought because they’re afraid of coming across as bigoted.

You recognise it, so don't do it. Do not be one of those young people who thinks reading something they may disagree with will harm them or label them.

And don't be that young woman who says another woman should not have opinions on Twitter (or anywhere else) because she should just know it would only encourage death threats or rape threats.