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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

UPDATE video clip of GRA discussion in the House of Commons just now - Liz Truss answers MP questions

126 replies

FindTheTruth · 24/09/2020 11:12

UPDATE video clip of GRA discussion in the House of Commons just now:. Fascinating!

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/f63a02f0-0018-4a77-b8d4-037dc41e3558?in=10:38:16&out=11:08:27

Includes mentions of:

Under 18’s - CASS NHS review announced yesterday

Biological sex

Remove Gender Dysphoria as a condition?? (Liz answer: ‘that is a matter for clinicians’)

Single sex spaces

Suicide stats

Levelling accusations at me is not helpful

Baroness Parkers FOI request - who has Liz met? (Liz answer: we met 140 organisations including LGBT and women’s organisations)

Corporates view is a matter for them not government

Domestic abuse shelters - what is the approach to Women’s prisons? (Liz answer: they can restrict access based on biological sex)

Trans community hopes raised then dashed, in context of rise in hate crimes

Working in Argentina and Ireland (Liz answer: healthcare comes out as the number one issue and focusing on that is the way to lead better lives)

Will she reconfirm support for single sex spaces? (Liz answer: the position is clear in the equality act. It’s important women’s spaces are protected)

What steps to remove trans hate crimes? (Liz answer: home office taking action to address this)

What under 18’s specialist support measures? (Liz answer: Dr Hilary Cass has been appointed to lead a review into young people, referral route and best practice)

Crispin Blunt MP (Reigate, Conservative) urgent question (UQ) this morning in the House of Commons on Liz Truss's statement on the Government's response to the GRA Consultation

OP posts:
DeliciouslyFemale · 24/09/2020 19:58

Escapeplanning

I do laugh at this, two countries that have declared war on Britain in my life time.

Do you have some insider knowledge because the British Government have always denied that it was a ware. But I suppose they had to as they had to, otherwise certain members of the British army would have been considered war criminals. Or is it only a war when the ‘wrong people’ get hurt? And no, I don’t support any paramilitary groups, but I’m not an ignorant, bigoted swine that spouts shite.

DeliciouslyFemale · 24/09/2020 19:58

*war

paniquer · 24/09/2020 20:03

[quote TheFleegleHasLanded]This is quite funny
twitter.com/aliciakearns/status/1309090221070471173?s=20[/quote]
Seem to know she is a woman

Cailleach1 · 24/09/2020 20:37

If it was a war, it would be better described as a UK civil war. Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

Cailleach1 · 24/09/2020 21:01

It is scurrilous to try to pretend that Ireland declared war on Britain. What irony given the reality of the past.

FindTheTruth · 25/09/2020 04:46

UPDATE - Blunt calls for Truss to be replaced, following GRA discussion in the House of Commons here

After this GRA discussion in the House of Commons 24 Sep 2020, Crispin Blunt MP (Reigate, Conservative) called for Liz Truss to be replaced as the leader of the Government Equalities Office (GEO). Specifically that 'Minister for Women and Equalities responsibilities' be transferred to another Minister.

Speaking after the debate, Mr Blunt said:

Rather than addressing the fundamental dehumanisation and the humiliation of the process of obtaining a GRC, the Minister has simply digitised the application form and reduced the fee, as she can’t legislate because she has no majority to carry legislation on this issue.

It betrays the results of the consultation and the trans community. Trans people in the UK deserve better. It is clear that the Minister for Women and Equalities does not have the time or necessary empathy to continue in this role. Her characterisation of this as a clash of competing rights betrays a fatal misunderstanding. Rights for trans people are individual human rights and any restriction of these must be on a proportionate and reasonable basis.

But this distraction, as a result of her responsibility for restarting the UK's role in international trade after 50 years, coupled with all of the new trade arrangements this requires, cannot be justified. On equalities, her approach has been didactic and suggestive of someone who has a set view and is short of time to think things through and does not respect the advice of others both inside and outside government who have long experience of the values and issues at stake and why this matters so much to people.

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 25/09/2020 06:09

Out of curiosity, what is the fundamental dehumanisation and the humiliation of the process of obtaining a GRC?

Genuine question. I mean, I would assume the process involves talking to professionals about profound feelings of dysphoria - is that 'inhumane'? Surely that's what you need to do in order to be prescribed oestrogen or testosterone in the first place? And 'living as a woman/man' for two years prior to transition by having a typically a female/male name on a gas bill - is that 'inhumane'? Am I missing something?

I admit to being slightly sceptical, because so much was made about the terribly expensive cost of obtaining a GRC. The cost was £140 (which has now been substantially reduced). Now, I understand that £140 is not cheap, but nor is it prohibitively expensive for the majority of the public. It's a little bit more than a marriage licence or the cost of a long weekend somewhere. Furthermore, I understand that the cost was reduced (waived?) for those on low incomes anyway.

So, I'm wondering how this 'inhumane and degrading experience' manifests itself in reality and whether the benefit to transpeople of getting rid of the process outweighs the risk posed to women by allowing self-id.

MaryAnon · 25/09/2020 07:23

I wonder why David TC Davies wasn't there.

carefulvulvadriver · 25/09/2020 08:04

Crispin Blunt’s comments in the house were, as others have said, odious. Patronising Truss by saying how well the little lady had handled the trade brief, but the equalities brief was clearly too much for her, as she had erroneously made a decision he didn’t agree with.
Far from having made a quick and un-thought through decision, it seems to me Truss has secured a remarkable level of joined up thinking and action on this: her response to the consultation was swiftly followed by announcement of the Cass review of child gender services in the health service and then a day later the clarification of guidance on the matter for schools. This was not a one woman knee jerk response. She’s thought long and hard about this and secured the agreement and action of other government depts.

And I say this as a long term labour voter

merrymouse · 25/09/2020 08:14

Rights for trans people are individual human rights and any restriction of these must be on a proportionate and reasonable basis.

This is just incoherent.

The GRA was written to protect the right to privacy, but this right is not absolute and can be restricted if it conflicts with the rights of others.

Basically women’s rights don’t matter, so the Women and equalities minister should be sacked for considering women.

Crispin, her brief is in her job title.

FindTheTruth · 25/09/2020 08:52

BBC Radio 4 Today in Parliament recording
24 Sept 2020, Time stamp 14:38
another summary on BBC sounds

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 25/09/2020 08:57

Placemarking to listen later, thanks for thread

DeliciouslyFemale · 25/09/2020 09:39

Out of curiosity, what is the fundamental dehumanisation and the humiliation of the process of obtaining a GRC?

Genuine question. I mean, I would assume the process involves talking to professionals about profound feelings of dysphoria - is that 'inhumane'? Surely that's what you need to do in order to be prescribed oestrogen or testosterone in the first place? And 'living as a woman/man' for two years prior to transition by having a typically a female/male name on a gas bill - is that 'inhumane'? Am I missing something?

Lord knows. Considering I spent over ten years having various professionals with their hands and various instruments up my vagina, trying to decide if I was riddled with ‘just enough’ endometriosis to be permitted a hysterectomy, I’m at a loss. 🤷🏻‍♀️ If I had know that telling them I identified as a male would have stopped them fucking telling me that I was too young to have a hysterectomy (I was in my 30s) and would have stopped the misogynistic pricks telling me that I might change my mind about kids, (I didn’t want any) I would have gladly went through any other dehumanisation and the humiliation to have it done quicker.

Children who identify as trans are not permitted to be questioned, because that’s trans ‘conversion’, against their rights and they know their own minds. Not giving them drugs that have not been tested for their side effects on developing bodies, is ‘bigotry’.

However when it comes to a woman in her 30s, suffering from endometriosis and fibroids, or indeed any grown woman with medical problems, that she DOESN’T know her own mind and must have numerous invasive tests for years, collapse in physical agony is absolutely fine and not misogynistic, patronising, sexist bollocks. Yeah. Excuse me if my sympathy is a little thin.

Signed, an adult human female that knows the reality of what it’s really like ‘living in a female body’.

Datun · 25/09/2020 13:24

Do they really think that calling gender dysphoria a sexual disorder sounds better?

I don't want a man with a sexual disorder getting changed in front of me any more than one with a psychological disorder.

And what do children have, then? Three year olds have a sexual disorder?

Is Mermaids advertising themselves as supporting children with sexual disorders?

A sexual disorder based on gender stereotypes like toys and clothes.

It's so incoherent it's ridiculous.

unwashedanddazed · 25/09/2020 14:13

interesting list of organisations in their FOI reply including Mermaids, TransgenderTrend and DSD families www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/615173/response/1466435/attach/3/FOI328883%20REPLY.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Really pleased to see Transwidows on that list.

Collidascope · 25/09/2020 14:26

If the Karen meme weren't largely based on misogny and class-scorn, "Crispin" would be the male equivalent.

CharlieParley · 25/09/2020 17:58

@DeliciouslyFemale

Out of curiosity, what is the fundamental dehumanisation and the humiliation of the process of obtaining a GRC?

Genuine question. I mean, I would assume the process involves talking to professionals about profound feelings of dysphoria - is that 'inhumane'? Surely that's what you need to do in order to be prescribed oestrogen or testosterone in the first place? And 'living as a woman/man' for two years prior to transition by having a typically a female/male name on a gas bill - is that 'inhumane'? Am I missing something?

Lord knows. Considering I spent over ten years having various professionals with their hands and various instruments up my vagina, trying to decide if I was riddled with ‘just enough’ endometriosis to be permitted a hysterectomy, I’m at a loss. 🤷🏻‍♀️ If I had know that telling them I identified as a male would have stopped them fucking telling me that I was too young to have a hysterectomy (I was in my 30s) and would have stopped the misogynistic pricks telling me that I might change my mind about kids, (I didn’t want any) I would have gladly went through any other dehumanisation and the humiliation to have it done quicker.

Children who identify as trans are not permitted to be questioned, because that’s trans ‘conversion’, against their rights and they know their own minds. Not giving them drugs that have not been tested for their side effects on developing bodies, is ‘bigotry’.

However when it comes to a woman in her 30s, suffering from endometriosis and fibroids, or indeed any grown woman with medical problems, that she DOESN’T know her own mind and must have numerous invasive tests for years, collapse in physical agony is absolutely fine and not misogynistic, patronising, sexist bollocks. Yeah. Excuse me if my sympathy is a little thin.

Signed, an adult human female that knows the reality of what it’s really like ‘living in a female body’.

I hear you! And im sorry you had to endure that. There's seemingly no limit to the humiliation and degradation we're expected to put up with either.

My second pregnancy the baby had a serious heart defect. Experimental surgery available, oldest surviving patients at that point were 15. Otherwise it's palliative care or heart transplant.

So I'm meeting the country's foremost neonatal heart surgeon to discuss the options available to try and save my baby's life.

First of all, the dude was beyond astonished that I was able to have an informed, rational high level discussion with him, demonstrating understanding of the issue, down to the surgery, outcomes etc.

So he asks me, incredulous, whether I'm a doctor. And I say, no, I'm just very good at research and I'm highly motivated to understand my options. Our conversation shifted to basic after that. Coz unless woman has studied medicine, she cannot possibly understand.

Now these babies typically thrive in the womb and then start deteriorating immediately after birth with survival measured in weeks at most (unless they have surgery or a transplant).

Mine, however, wasn't thriving (diagnosed IUGR, half the size and a quarter the weight expected). To be able to accurately assess the baby's chance of survival it was important to ascertain my precise dates.

As I was suffering from secondary infertility issues, my obgyn had me doing an ovulation chart throughout my treatment to ensure that it was working, even if I didn't conceive.

So I knew, based on date on the chart when I ovulated, and thus the narrow window within which I must have conceived.

He didn't believe I could have correctly done that. Despite the fact he'd just thought I was a medical doctor, now he thought I couldn't possibly have plotted my temperature or take it properly.

So eventually I said, look, I know how many weeks I am because I didn't have sex with my husband after such and such a date as I left the country to visit my parents.

He replied "That's no guarantee. You could have been unfaithful on holiday."

So I had to assure this bastard that I hadn't had sex with anyone other than my husband to get him to accept my dates.

Now I realise that it probably takes a big ego to become such a renowned heart surgeon, but I don't think this was ego alone. Especially since he was from an even more traditionally patriarchal culture than my own. That was misogyny in action.

I mean I wouldn't normally engage in whataboutery when a group complains about humiliating and degrading treatment. But when said group demands a privilege that negatively affects a second group historically treated even worse, I think the question is wholly justified.

DeliciouslyFemale · 25/09/2020 18:55

I mean I wouldn't normally engage in whataboutery when a group complains about humiliating and degrading treatment. But when said group demands a privilege that negatively affects a second group historically treated even worse, I think the question is wholly justified

Exactly!

I’m so sorry you’re going through all of this. I hope your wee baby is helped and improves soon. 💐

CharlieParley · 25/09/2020 22:12

Thank you. It was 19 years ago, a long time to heal from the heartbreak of the baby I lost. Strange how those humiliating moments moments have stuck in my head though.

BatShite · 26/09/2020 00:23

Surely the outcome of declaring GD to NOT be a medical problem will be that any medical support, eg GIDS, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and some surgical options all currently available on the NHS would have to be paid for privately, because it’s not a medical issue!!!

Yeah whenever this comes up, I think the same. Another thing that shows TRAs really do not have trans peoples interests at heart really. And that (as we know) their campaigning is for another matter entirely. They don't care that their lobbying has the potential to actually remove services/help from actual transpeople. Aslong as men with no dysphoria get ther own way. Yay, go trans rights! Hmm

Datun · 26/09/2020 01:23

CharlieParley

Oh, Charlie ❤️

justawoman · 26/09/2020 06:28

Yeah, I once turned up at the emergency GP with some alarming neurological symptoms that turned out to be a bad migraine. The bastard refused to consider any other diagnosis than me being pregnant and panicked about it, despite me assuring him I was a lesbian and hadn’t had any sexual contact with a man in 20 years. He eventually said he’d do a urine test to check for infection, and then instead I caught him dipping a pregnancy test into my urine. He was genuinely astonished to find I was telling the truth.

Nowhere near what CharlieParley and others have gone through Flowers, but sticks in my mind as one of those petty humiliations women go through routinely in accessing healthcare.

Mollyollydolly · 26/09/2020 22:24

Just bumping this to say the one thing I needed in my life was PP doing a match of the day style commentary on the debate. Worth a watch.

IloveJKRowling · 27/09/2020 00:36

Just bumping this to say the one thing I needed in my life was PP doing a match of the day style commentary on the debate. Worth a watch.

I've just watched it and I have to say Posie took the sting out of seeing the levels of misogyny and sheer, unbridled women hatred displayed by so many MPs. Really very, very disturbing and explains why so many have been willing to go along with the agenda to remove women and girl's rights for so long. Liz Truss is really a shero. It must be quite frightening to have to face that and she was calm and firm.

I find it almost unbelievable so many MPs failed to even give the slightest nod to 51% of the population and electorate. The deafening silence around the occasional mention of domestic violence shelters was frightening. The women who spoke up for single sex spaces and vulnerable women all said that they also support the rights of trans people - but not a single person speaking 'for' trans 'rights' spoke up for women or seemed to think vulnerable women were worth a nanosecond of consideration - women are half their electorate FFS!

IloveJKRowling · 27/09/2020 00:38

If anyone plays me that video of Liz Truss around election time I might even vote Tory (despite the fact that my MP is a waste of space IMO).