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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

UPDATE video clip of GRA discussion in the House of Commons just now - Liz Truss answers MP questions

126 replies

FindTheTruth · 24/09/2020 11:12

UPDATE video clip of GRA discussion in the House of Commons just now:. Fascinating!

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/f63a02f0-0018-4a77-b8d4-037dc41e3558?in=10:38:16&out=11:08:27

Includes mentions of:

Under 18’s - CASS NHS review announced yesterday

Biological sex

Remove Gender Dysphoria as a condition?? (Liz answer: ‘that is a matter for clinicians’)

Single sex spaces

Suicide stats

Levelling accusations at me is not helpful

Baroness Parkers FOI request - who has Liz met? (Liz answer: we met 140 organisations including LGBT and women’s organisations)

Corporates view is a matter for them not government

Domestic abuse shelters - what is the approach to Women’s prisons? (Liz answer: they can restrict access based on biological sex)

Trans community hopes raised then dashed, in context of rise in hate crimes

Working in Argentina and Ireland (Liz answer: healthcare comes out as the number one issue and focusing on that is the way to lead better lives)

Will she reconfirm support for single sex spaces? (Liz answer: the position is clear in the equality act. It’s important women’s spaces are protected)

What steps to remove trans hate crimes? (Liz answer: home office taking action to address this)

What under 18’s specialist support measures? (Liz answer: Dr Hilary Cass has been appointed to lead a review into young people, referral route and best practice)

Crispin Blunt MP (Reigate, Conservative) urgent question (UQ) this morning in the House of Commons on Liz Truss's statement on the Government's response to the GRA Consultation

OP posts:
yourhairiswinterfire · 24/09/2020 13:26

and I am still unclear from those questions exactly why the trans community feel so horribly let down and disappointed...

It seems the majority of those that are disappointed are the blokes who wanted to be able to self id into women's business. They only think these non existent rights have been "taken away" because Stonewall and all the other lying orgs have led them up the garden path. I don't see anyone directing their anger at them though, funnily enough.

So someone with guts seriously needs to stand up and ask why men who aren't suffering with gender dysphoria, have no intention of medically transitioning in any way, and become violent and threatening when women say no to them, are so, so adamant to weasel their way into spaces where women and children are in a vulnerable state. I can't think of a single good reason or justification for this.

FindTheTruth · 24/09/2020 13:27

Felicity, Jackie, Liz Flowers

UPDATE video clip of GRA discussion in the House of Commons just now - Liz Truss answers MP questions
OP posts:
OvaHere · 24/09/2020 13:36

So someone with guts seriously needs to stand up and ask why men who aren't suffering with gender dysphoria, have no intention of medically transitioning in any way, and become violent and threatening when women say no to them, are so, so adamant to weasel their way into spaces where women and children are in a vulnerable state. I can't think of a single good reason or justification for this.

Yes this. If there is no gender dysphoria what's it about then and why is medical treatment required for something that isn't medical?

Collidascope · 24/09/2020 13:39

We kept being told that self id made no difference anyway, didn't we? So why such a big deal that it's not going through?

And I never understand what quoting those vastly inflated suicide attempt stats is meant to achieve. Despite the current acceptable line that transgender people are the MOST OPPRESSED group EVER, other groups who were vastly more oppressed - black people enslaved in the US, for example, or women pretty much everywhere don't, afaik, try to kill themselves at the rate that it's claimed trans people do. People in dire straits still largely tend to cling to life. People who believe those stats must believe that trans people have dreadful mental health issues, and frankly they should be campaigning for far more psychiatric care (especially before embarking on drastic surgery) rather than self id which "doesn't change anything" in their own words.

Manderleyagain · 24/09/2020 13:42

She did very well.
One of the MPs who asked supportive questions was jacky doyle price (Thurrock) who has been 'out' gc for a while. The other was someone I didn't know about. Felicity Buchan (cons Kensington). So it's good to see another mp supportive in a public way.

The most positive thing was the statements in support of female only spaces under the EA - based on biological sex.

From the opposition questions, it's likely that if we get a labour government they will introduce self id. The consultation responses were 2/3 in favour of self id. I know the political context (funded orgs all for self id & only grass roots women against, plus the intimidation, etc) explains that, and yougov polling shows that legal self id is seriously unpopular - but any future government will be able to use the consultation to justify the policy.

I think the priority for now should be to concentrate on protecting the single sex exemptions, making sure they are understood so organisations feel they can use them. Then services will be able to be provided based on sex regardless of legal gender where needed. Ann sinnott's judicial review will be important for that as well as other legal cases, but we need the government on side too. It sounds like liz truss thinks it should be obvious that refuges & prisons can be based on biological sex, but service providers also need to think that's obvious.

Collidascope · 24/09/2020 13:42

And yes, thank you to Liz, Felicity and Jackie.

Manderleyagain · 24/09/2020 13:57

Collidascope
Very good point.
There is a precedent though I think. Before the 1967 change to decriminalise homosexuality there was some focus on the number of gay men who died by suicide. It's a different situation obviously.

I don't doubt that transgender people face discrimination and harrassment and difficulties. A mental health crisis in a certain demographic should lead people to try and understand exactly what is going wrong. Here though, the evidence seems poor quality. And there doesn't seem to be any real claim being made about how changing the grc process will help mental health.

Floisme · 24/09/2020 14:00

From a Labour voter of 40+ years: thank you Liz Truss, Felicity Buchan and Jackie Doyle Price.

merrymouse · 24/09/2020 14:08

From the opposition questions, it's likely that if we get a labour government they will introduce self id.

Were any of the speakers close to the Keir Starmer? KS knows that the likes of LRM represent the Conservative's best chance of maintaining their majority at the next election.

TheFnozwhowasmirage · 24/09/2020 14:11

Oh that Twitter comments on Alicia Kearns is delicious. She's my MP and when I wrote to her with my concerns,was very dismissive and quoted a load of rubbish,basically told me to 'run along dear,and don't worry your pretty little head about things you don't understand'.
I replied,telling her that she had no business telling me things I knew to be untrue,and asking which women's and children's safeguarding groups she'd consulted with. Never heard another thing.
Doubtless she'll be all over FB later,with her trans flag icons,saying how she tried to stand up for marginalized and vulnerable trans people.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 24/09/2020 14:13

Alicia Kearns not coming out of this well. Despite not speaking in the debate (which Women Uniting did correct very quickly and explained how they got her name from two sources) she is continuing to dig a hole:

UPDATE video clip of GRA discussion in the House of Commons just now - Liz Truss answers MP questions
TheFnozwhowasmirage · 24/09/2020 14:20

Thefleeglehaslanded even better! 😄 'You don't get to lecture me on Women's Rights'. Yes love,you saw fit to lecture me on trans rights. She truly is a shocker.

wellbehavedwomen · 24/09/2020 14:25

Oof, so she's telling a deaf person they should have ignored the subtitles and the written record, in favour of their ears? I do appreciate how that happened (it's the assumption I'd have made, and I have close relatives with hearing loss myself so no excuse at all) but generally a swift apology would be wise.

She's done great work on better support for women labouring in Covid, so I don't want to give her an unwarranted level of grief. But she does need to back down here. Talk about intersectionality.

wellbehavedwomen · 24/09/2020 14:27

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

Thefleeglehaslanded even better! 😄 'You don't get to lecture me on Women's Rights'. Yes love,you saw fit to lecture me on trans rights. She truly is a shocker.
I've never heard of her before - what did she do, re. trans rights?
wellbehavedwomen · 24/09/2020 14:27

For clarity, her work on women labouring in Covid is on her twitter, which I just saw! Hence my comment on that.

carefulvulvadriver · 24/09/2020 14:27

I guess he's referring to WHO removing the word disorder from 'ICD-11, gender incongruence'

@FindTheTruth I think the Brighton MP is referring there to how the GRC requires 2 docs to confirm gender dysphoria (that right?) but he's saying that contradictions the WHO's position that it's not a medical condition.

I wonder if he has a point there and we'll have to come back and have the argument over the GRC process all over again??

wellbehavedwomen · 24/09/2020 14:28

Ugh, sorry, just read down! Am dealing with small kids while MNing - never wise.

FindTheTruth · 24/09/2020 14:41

@carefulvulvadriver I'm not sure and it was the first I'd heard of it this morning - the WHO re-classification is probably worth a separate thread as reading WHO gender definitions , I see a massive can of worms and so many questions. It seems to assume every person with gender dysphoria is trans - not sure if I've got that right

OP posts:
carefulvulvadriver · 24/09/2020 14:42

I've just seen the Hansard transcript where Liz Truss says, in response to the WHO ICD-11 issue and the GRC:

"The clinical diagnosis is a matter for clinicians, and the Health and Social Care Secretary is working with them on this issue. I think there needs to be a medical element to the process, so that there are proper checks and balances in the system, but the specific diagnosis is a matter for clinicians."

carefulvulvadriver · 24/09/2020 14:45

sorry I cross posted @FindTheTruth
Here's the full exchange from Hansard:

"Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the fact that the Minister has tried to take some of the heat out of this discussion and that she has at least come forward with some conclusions, because the wait has caused many of the problems. However, I fail to understand how her administrative changes will comply with the World Health Organisation’s requirement that by 2020 we remove gender dysphoria as a medical classification, seeing as the GRA is based on that medical classification. How will the Minister’s administrative changes fulfil our international obligations to remove that classification?

Elizabeth Truss
The administrative changes will make the process considerably better. As I have said, we are also putting additional resources into transgender services. The clinical diagnosis is a matter for clinicians, and the Health and Social Care Secretary is working with them on this issue. I think there needs to be a medical element to the process, so that there are proper checks and balances in the system, but the specific diagnosis is a matter for clinicians."

but yes, can of worms

Soontobe60 · 24/09/2020 14:45

@carefulvulvadriver

I guess he's referring to WHO removing the word disorder from 'ICD-11, gender incongruence'

@FindTheTruth I think the Brighton MP is referring there to how the GRC requires 2 docs to confirm gender dysphoria (that right?) but he's saying that contradictions the WHO's position that it's not a medical condition.

I wonder if he has a point there and we'll have to come back and have the argument over the GRC process all over again??

Surely the outcome of declaring GD to NOT be a medical problem will be that any medical support, eg GIDS, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and some surgical options all currently available on the NHS would have to be paid for privately, because it’s not a medical issue!!! Trans people would be shooting themselves in the foot!
Calyx72 · 24/09/2020 14:45

wingsoverscotland.com/a-change-of-plans/

@Winesalot @334bu

Yes the SNP are being very underhand imo. It's like they want to lose their majority

Escapeplanning · 24/09/2020 14:52

@merrymouse

It's interesting that they never seem to mention Canada when they talk about countries where Self ID is successful. Why always Ireland (population 5 million) and Argentina? (A country with a less that enviable human rights record, so really impossible to say whether women's rights are affected).

Is it because there is quite a lot of evidence that women's rights have been compromised in Canada?

I do laugh at this, two countries that have declared war on Britain in my life time.
CharlieParley · 24/09/2020 15:01

Various MPs during this session claimed the current GRA requirements violate the human rights of people who identify as trans and/or strongly implied or even stated that the UK is violating international human rights law by rejecting self-id.

I want to comment on this, as it is demonstrably false, but also often difficult to counter unless you understand the context, making it very easy to use this as an argument.

1. Human Rights Issue:

Most people believe to get a GRC, a person who identifies as trans has to medically transition all the way.

When the GRC was enacted in 2004, international human rights law reflected this view, and almost all of the 47 member states of the Council of Europe who did allow a legal sex change at all, insisted on applicants being a) sterile and b) fully post-op before granting the desired legal status.

Accordingly, the 2002 judgement of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) was only concerned with the rights of homosexual transsexuals who had fully transitioned (and who, for all intents and purposes, "passed" as a member of the opposite sex).

The UK's Labour Government at the time rightly anticipated that this stance would change and sought to future proof the GRA by making only a medical diagnosis a mandatory requirement.

As this would have resulted in popular opinion opposing the new law, this decision was not publicised. On the contrary, the public was hoodwinked by two mechanisms:

I) directly in the law: if you mentioned in your application that you had indeed transitioned medically, you had to prove it. Because initially only transsexuals who had medically transitioned applied, they would then talk about all the evidence they had to supply, so many truly believed it was a requirement to fully transition, including transsexuals and campaigners.

This was in my view a deliberate tactic by the government to both deter chancers from applying and avoid public dissent.

II) in its publicity: That it was deliberate is borne out in the briefings given to the press and groups opposing the law between 2002 and 2004. They never mentioned that surgery wasn't necessary and batted away any questions about abuse of the system by only ever talking about fully post-op (homosexual) transsexuals (using words like long, painful journey, serious commitment etc).

The issue of non-homosexual transsexuals ie late transitioners was studiously avoided. Indeed, the government even refused to meet with late transitioners who tried to convince the government to allow them to stay married and still change their sex. As the government introduced the GRA mostly only in order to avoid legalising equal marriage, they were not interested.

So they enacted a GRA requiring only a diagnosis in 2004, and in 2017 were proven right. In a ECHR judgement that year, the court ruled by a majority opinion that requiring complete surgery and/or sterilisation violated the human rights of people who identify as trans. This was a marked difference to earlier judgements which held that it was up to individual member states to decide under which conditions they granted a legal sex change. The majority of member states of the Council of Europe would now have to change their national gender recognition laws to comply with this ruling (22 of 47 required surgery and/or sterilisation, 7 did not allow legal sex changes at all).

(So much for the also frequently repeated claim that the UK is behind the majority of countries in how it allows people who identify as trans to change their legal sex. We are ahead of the vast majority of countries in the world - the majority still do not allow any kind of legal sex change, and the majority of those who do, continue to require a medical transition. A handful of countries have introduced self-id, but it frequently does not work the same way or has the same impact it would have in the UK, because of how these countries' self-id rules interact with other laws and safeguards.)

Verdict: Not an issue. The GRA already complies.

2. Human Rights Issue:

The requirement to provide proof of a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is claimed to be a human rights violation, usually Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rghts (the right to a private life, family life, personal autonomy).

This is described as an intrusive, humiliating and demeaning practice and of pathologising people who identify as trans.

It's a curious claim in light of every MP who brought this up also bemoaning the dire state of healthcare access to treatments for gender dysphoria in the UK.

All of these people on the waiting list could have received a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria by their GP, and certainly this does form the very first step of treatment in Gender Identity clinics, especially for those who have self-referred. So they are voluntarily undergoing this evil practice to access medical help for something that isn't a medical condition but will not do so to gain legal rights. (The requirement to get a medical diagnosis before a medical transition is of course described as illegitimate, transphobic gatekeeping by the medical profession and the demand for unfettered access to treatment without a diagnosis is part of various trans rights manifestos focusing on or including health care.)

Back to the human rights issue: needing a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to legally change sex.

In the same judgement in 2017, the ECHR found that while it did breach the applicants' Article 8 rights to have to medically transition before being allowed a legal sex change, they disagreed that the state violated their human rights in demanding proof of having a medical condition that necessitated a legal sex change.

Here is the full case and here is a quote from the press release:

In today’s Chamber judgment in the case of A.P., Garçon and Nicot v. France (application nos. 79885/12, 52471/13 and 52596/13) the European Court of Human Rights held:

by six votes to one, that there had been a violation of Article 8 (right to respect for private life) of the European Convention on Human Rights in respect of E. Garçon and S. Nicot, on account of the obligation to establish the irreversible nature of the change in their appearance;

by a majority, that there had been no violation of Article 8 of the Convention in respect of E. Garçon on account of the obligation to prove that he actually suffered from gender identity disorder and in respect of A.P. on account of the obligation to undergo a medical examination.

Verdict: Not found to be a human rights violation.

3. Human Rights Issue:

The application process (various aspects thereof, but especially the requirement for a diagnosis) for a GRC under the GRA violates the Yogyakarta Principles, which insist on self-id as best practice as well as Resolution 2048 of the Council of Europe, which does the same. (Amongst a number of other demands.)

Both of these are expertly discussed here by Kath Murray of the MBM Policy Analysis Collective in reference to the Scottish Government's justification for introducing self-id. The gist of it is that the Yogyakarta Principles is essentially an advocacy paper written by an international group of LGBT-rights campaigners. They feature mainly in and inform the pro-self-id side in this debate, but have not made any progress in being taken seriously by the UN, let alone international and national legal systems.

Resolution 2048 is a political statement and puts no obligation on member states to adopt it.

Neither document considers the wider impact on sex-based rights (I'd say they can't because they come from the sex is a construct side of the debate) or even acknowledges a conflict with the human rights of other groups, something which actual human rights law very carefully considers.

Verdict: Not human rights law.