Douglas Murray on Joe Rogan: “Politicians are using trans rights as a bartering ram for something else”.

[RandomGel]

More light. In this podcast Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray discuss many issues but there is a great discussion on identity politics.

Quite rightly Douglas Murray describes politicians as using trans rights as a battering ram for something else.

Joe Rogan refers to the TRA mantra “there is no such thing as biological sex” as ridiculous.

It’s heartening to see Abigail Shearer and Debra Soh referenced and praised for taking a stand, living their truth and refusing to go along with the crowd.

It is longer than 2 hours long but it is really is worth a listen. I certainly don’t agree with everything but much sense is spoken particularly around identity politics and the medicalisation of children as being something we will look back on with abject horror. I am so glad that these debates are happening and on such a large platform.

1.7 million views,18,000 comments from a posting of 2 days ago.

@MaMaLa321

Isn't that Self-ID?

No it’s allowing people who meet their own state’s requirements for gender identity to have a passport that aligns with their local identity documents. If your state allows “X” under sex on a drivers license then the passport can also. Most Americans don’t have passports anyway.

Anyway i would consider a GC feminist voting to Trump to be as stupidly one issue as a “pro life” voter. Trump is an enemy to women particularly black and immigrant ones. Perhaps you missed the news that asylum seekers at the Mexican border are being given hysterectomies without consent. But yeah go and support him because of the trans issue.

Thanks for sharing OP. I'll try to listen to this later.

As President, Biden will build on this action to ensure all transgender individuals have access to identification documents that accurately reflect their gender identity. Biden believes every transgender or non-binary person should have the option of changing their gender marker to “M,” “F,” or “X” on government identifications, passports, and other documentation. He will support state and federal efforts to allow for this accurate representation.

He intends to allow everyone to choose the sex marker on their official documents according to their self declared gender identity. That is the definition of self ID.

I don't know if Biden would be any better at this point. Trump isn't really that different from the presidents of the last 30-40 years, if anything his foreign policy is less hawkish than I'm used to seeing from the USA. But he's not very statesmanlike or serious, so he can't sell it as well. That means people are finally openly criticising longstanding issues in the US, even if they see them as uniquely Trump-ian issues. I remember during the Iraq invasion, Americans were loathe to criticise Bush Jr and if celebrities said anything (like the Dixie Chicks) their careers would be over. Britain got dragged into more and more wars, and exploitative and deregulating trade deals following the USA's lead. Now that the US has a president that nobody respects, TTIP is off the table, and we might even see Korean reunification in our lifetimes because Kim and Moon are dealing with the issue themselves and are no longer bothered about giving the US a say in it.
I worry Biden would be a return to the old days of Clinton, Bush and Obama and give that veneer of legitimacy to the same old system that hasn't really changed much under Trump or any of them.

not just passports though, government documentation.

How can that NOT be Self-ID?

And I'm not a Trump supporter, thanks. Just open-minded.

Interested in trans issues purely from a dressing up and male perspective: not a mention of transmen that I heard. No interest in women's rights. He may be speaking out against transgender ideology but he's not speaking from a woman-friendly pov.

You’ve openly admitted to having not read his book and having no intention to do so and yet you seem quite confident in stating this total misrepresentation of his views on the subject.

Having read the book, I believe that his biggest concern over the trans issue concerns the medical transitioning of children of both sexes and the way to subject is discussed and its consequences downplayed by ‘support’ groups.

@OldCrone

As President, Biden will build on this action to ensure all transgender individuals have access to identification documents that accurately reflect their gender identity. Biden believes every transgender or non-binary person should have the option of changing their gender marker to “M,” “F,” or “X” on government identifications, passports, and other documentation. He will support state and federal efforts to allow for this accurate representation.

He intends to allow everyone to choose the sex marker on their official documents according to their self declared gender identity. That is the definition of self ID.

Whether or not you can choose your gender on your passport is 100% linked to your state documents. If you live in a state that is more liberal on gender then your passport will match. If you don’t it won’t. It’s not national self ID it’s allowing those who live in states with self ID to have document uniformity.

But I’m genuinely sickened that Trump is about to appoint an anti abortion Supreme Court justice and people who claim to be feminists say they’d vote for him.

@queenofknives

Well luckily for me I'm not in the US so I don't have to make the decision. But plenty of women voted for Trump last time and I would bet money even more will do so this time. Things can change fast in politics but the way this is going, I don't see Biden winning. People don't want wokeness, they don't want to abolish the police, they don't want riots and politicians who take a knee. And Trump isn't the only one accused of sexual assaults either! Even if you decided to vote 'as a feminist' I'm not sure it would make it any simpler.

I agree with pp who said Murray's views about women/feminism are challenging. That's how I feel. I think he gets some of it wrong but he always makes me think and reflect on my beliefs and opinions.

I think it would be great to see Murray have a chat with a feminist. I think Meghan Murphy would be a good choice.

and people who claim to be feminists say

turn

I read comments like yours, your eagerness to call voters 'stupid,' your simplistic Manichean statements, your unsubstantiated assertions and I have a sense of deja vu. If Biden loses against a candidate that even the most partisan Republicans regards as flawed, that is on the Democrats. And attitudes like yours. Do you understand that elections are decided by independent voters? Calling people stupid because they don't agree with you isn't a smart look. Did you sleep thru the Hillary debacle?

I'm not clear on what a Biden victory would mean for self ID and for issues like women's sport. I'm also baffled as to how he got selected, and exasperated that his main selling point seems to be that he's not Trump. I would prefer to be able to ask questions and talk about it without being called a Trump supporter, but quite frankly that tactic only works the once and after that I just laugh.

And likewise with Murray - while I wouldn't describe him as a friend to women, at least he doesn't call me a bigot for wanting to talk about this stuff.

@queenofknives

I think it's pointless to think in terms of left and right and the old tribalisms. It's totalitarians versus liberals and that's it. Liberals don't all agree on everything, but that's kind of the point. Freedom to discuss and explore and debate ideas is part of what they stand for. That's why Bret Weinstein can talk to Douglas Murray and Joe Rogan can talk to Candace Owens and so on.

I do get frustrated with a lot of the discussions about women because I think often they miss the point, or they miss important points, that people like Heather Heying often add to the discussion. But to be honest, I do see most of the liberals being open to discussions with women and giving them a voice. Rogan has had Abigail Shrier on recently, for example. Triggernometry went to Posie's podcast and fell over themselves apologising for not getting it sooner and saying how her episode is their most popular ever. So women's voices are in there. But yes, it can be frustrating to hear these wonderful men talking on stuff that they could only have heard from women. (I do notice James Lindsay never takes sole credit for his book with Helen Pluckrose, even though interviewers often seem to 'forget' she's the co-author.)

I actually agree that feminism skimmed over motherhood a bit and there was a seeming division between women who wanted to be mums and so-called 'career women'. I don't think the divide was manufactured by feminism, but I don't think feminists did enough for women who were seen to kind of let the side down a bit by wanting to fall in love with a man and make babies - there was a kind of scornfulness expressed towards those women, which you can still see in some quarters today.

I agree with your first point queen but I think feminism did much more than skim over motherhood - it actively hated motherhood and left many of us who were ardent feminist in despair when we found that as mothers we wanted motherhood valued.

I think the biggest disservice Feminism did to women was to devalue motherhood and to focus only on economic equality - yes economic equality is so important but it played into the hands of the capitalist patriarchy and just gave women one more job to do - outside the home, earning, and inside the home child rearing - while men got off scot free. I think that is why to-day's young women are confused - we focused on all the wrong things, we didn't celebrate the uniqueness of women and demand it be respected as much as the uniqueness of men, we tried to ape men, and now look where we are.

The second failure of feminism was to align women up against each other - the first law of the patriarchy is that men always support other men, and the only way we could break that down was to always support other women - but we continue to split and disagree and men are laughing all the way to the capitalist patriarchy utopia, while we fight amongst ourselves. And I admit, I find fault with other women, but I will always support them against the patriarchy even if I disagree with them on other stuff.

[quote BelleHathor]Last week Trump provisionally agreed to do a 4 hour debate against Biden with Rogan as the host. That's why the attacks on him have increased with many think pieces on how "racist" and "sexist" Rogan is to give the Biden camp an excuse to decline.
Rogan is a classic Liberal in the "I may disagree with what you have to say but will defend your right to say it" sense so is incompatible with cancel culture where words = violence. The modern left rules by fear and a "listen to us only" cult like culture. Reminds me of this video of a former Dem voting knitter
m.youtube.com/watch?v=_lp7lh1x5uI[/quote]
Belle

That's interesting. Biden will never go on Joe Rogan, although that would be a fascinating platform for the debate. The fanaticism and intolerance of those denouncing people for crimes of adjacency or intimidating women diners to force them to make the right hand gesture is on display. If Trump wins, these clowns are part of the reason why.

@NecessaryScene1

I don't get the love for him on here.

Oh, come on, he's just tweeted:

Claims that the new novel by jk_rowling features a murderous cross-dresser seem not to have hurt sales. So I should like to make it clear that 'The Madness of Crowds' is absolutely packed with murderous cross-dressers. Can't move for them. Main point of the book, etc.

That is funny. 🤣 I did like the article he wrote about gender id and children. I listened to him on Triggernometry and had to turn him off. I do appreciate the free speech aspect of that and I think it is important. He also has influences which is useful. I read an article which said he was influential in pursuading David Cameron that Conservatives would buy gay marriage. He also went to Judge Rinder’s wedding (Julie Bindel was there and they seem to be friends). That really amused me.

I think it is his voice. My sister did unconscious bias training at work. She said she found out she was biased against really posh people and Tories. I had to laugh because that is not an unconscious bias but I suppose I am the same.

if anything his foreign policy is less hawkish

suffrajester
That is an interesting point. The Republican party and its voters comprises different, sometimes opposing views. There is a libertarian wing, which has argued consistently against the ruinous wars of the 21st century. The tide has turned against the NeoCons who promoted these wars and now Republicans like Tucker Carlson are openly speaking against intervensionist foreign policy.

The second failure of feminism was to align women up against each other - the first law of the patriarchy is that men always support other men, and the only way we could break that down was to always support other women - but we continue to split and disagree and men are laughing all the way to the capitalist patriarchy utopia, while we fight amongst ourselves.

True (and rather painful) story coming up.

In autumn 2017 I had to take ill health retirement from teaching. I get a pension, but it’s not the greatest. I never took extended maternity leave with either of my children as DH and I could never afford for me to. However, he had recently got a much better paying job and we could afford for me not to look for work. He also has a four hour daily commute into London (apart from during Covid), so his time to contribute towards the ‘running’ of the household is more limited.

The nature and extent of my disability and the fact that we had 2 kids at primary school means that I am, to all intents and purposes, unemployable. It’s not hyperbole, it’s just a fact of life.

Anyway, on MN I came across a thread about women who didn’t work despite having children older than baby/toddler age. I really shouldn’t have opened the thread but I did. The insults that most stuck in my mind were ‘parasite’, ‘leech’ and ‘prostitute’. One poster helpfully commented that married med who have affairs often do so because their wives don’t financially contribute towards the household.

It made me feel such a lot better about my circumstances.

@TheRealMcKennaDonsTinfoilHat - I know, I am a full time mum and I help run DH business. But the abuse on this site about SAHM is enough to throw anyone into despair.

As an aside, I have just been reading Julie Bindel in the Spectator on RBG and oh dear, the comments underneath are so vile and misandrist and hateful towards women that I think I will cancel my subscription (paid last week to read Hadley Freeman!!!). I feel scared, it is real hatred.

The insults that most stuck in my mind were ‘parasite’, ‘leech’ and ‘prostitute’

One wonders at the motives and sex of those making such misogynistic, hateful comments. On a parenting website.

@BovaryX

and people who claim to be feminists say

turn

I read comments like yours, your eagerness to call voters 'stupid,' your simplistic Manichean statements, your unsubstantiated assertions and I have a sense of deja vu. If Biden loses against a candidate that even the most partisan Republicans regards as flawed, that is on the Democrats. And attitudes like yours. Do you understand that elections are decided by independent voters? Calling people stupid because they don't agree with you isn't a smart look. Did you sleep thru the Hillary debacle?

This is so true. I remember commentators behaving exactly like this in the Hillary campaign (it was shockingly bad here in Ireland, a complete Democrat loving media, despite the fact that none of us can vote!!) - and then people were shocked that Trump won. If you call your potential voters stupid, you really are sending them over to the other guy.

BovaryX definitely this "The fanaticism and intolerance of those denouncing people for crimes of adjacency or intimidating women diners to force them to make the right hand gesture is on display. If Trump wins, these clowns are part of the reason why."
I used to think, do you not realise how stupid this is? you can't bully people into voting for you. Have you learned nothing from 2016? But instead of changing, adapting they doubled down and now will learn the hard way in November.
Re: Rogan, Biden can never do the show he wouldn't be able to last the 4 hours (There has been speculation that he has some sort of dementia, so only does press on lucid days and for a very short period). It is a genius move by the Trump Team, 4 hours uninterrupted on the biggest podcast in the world to speak on his policies directly without it being framed by the MSM.

I’m a woman with multiple minority identities (race, nationality) with many loved ones in America. None of them view trans issues as primary to their safety or happiness. They are worried about racism, crime, women’s health, child care and education. These are the barriers to their success day to day. If they were concerned about trans issues they could move to a state like Ohio that doesn’t allow people to change their sex on government documents.

I think if you are stupid enough to put an issue that is a matter of federalism ahead of nationwide matters that affect women like Roe v Wade or religious exemptions for employers to block their staff from getting birth control. And I hope you feel smug and happy if the racist sexist is re-elected while your drink your tea in Britain and pat yourself on the back for defending the sisterhood.

I can only cross my fingers that democrat supporters are not resorting to this kind of rhetoric in their campaign. I hope are having civil discussions with Trump supporters - and also with democrats who didn't turn out to vote last time. Because what is needed is for people to change their minds. Calling them stupid, smug, racist - whatever might shut them up but it won't stop them voting.

TheRealMcKenna — yes, I made it clear I hadn't read the book. My critique of Murray was based on a mere two-hour interview in which he was permitted to talk freely and at length by an admiring host. Consider the possibility, would you, that the real Douglas Murray was on display and not the curated version in his edited book. You can listen to him laughing at Christine Lagarde for yourself. Just click the link supplied by the OP and listen for 90 minutes.

Bernie would've been a far better pick. He offers something different, he's a challenge to the status quo of an endless line of neoliberal warmongers, which is why a lot of people went for Trump, he offered something different, and they wanted anything that just wasn't more of the same. The Democrats aren't going to do well if they can only promise a return to the way things were in 2008, which was pretty awful for most Americans what with the financial crisis. If Obama had reinstated Glass-Steigall and brought in more controls on capitalism than the sticking plaster that Dodd-Frank was, things may have been different, but we can't change that now.

I also think that Bernie would have been better. America doesn’t really have a left in the way we do. A new senator was described as being on the far left of the Democratic Party because she supported universal healthcare. If I was American obviously I would vote for a Biden because Trump is just awful. However I do fear that Trump might win because Biden is not that brilliant a prospect.

Astonishing Trump’s foreign policy does not seem to be as bad as George W Bush’s as he has avoided warmongering. I can see how that would be appealing for many Americans.

I miss Obama.

Well if they lose, the Democrats have only themselves to blame. As I wrote on another thread, Joe Biden was not the answer in 2008; he was not the answer in 2016, - he sure as hell is not the answer right now. I worked in business strategy and I despair that someone in the Democrats had no plan for 2020. Where are all the young, moderate, ambitious people ? Have Bill and Hillary so destroyed the party that there was no one on the up and up able to take on Trump? Why was Cuomo not on the ballot? In all my many years watching US politics, I now believe the Democratic Party has been hollowed out. And there does not seem to be any idea amongst their strategists of what they are doing wrong so it seems any dim Republican will be able to get elected in 2024.