Douglas Murray on Joe Rogan: “Politicians are using trans rights as a bartering ram for something else”.

[RandomGel]

More light. In this podcast Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray discuss many issues but there is a great discussion on identity politics.

Quite rightly Douglas Murray describes politicians as using trans rights as a battering ram for something else.

Joe Rogan refers to the TRA mantra “there is no such thing as biological sex” as ridiculous.

It’s heartening to see Abigail Shearer and Debra Soh referenced and praised for taking a stand, living their truth and refusing to go along with the crowd.

It is longer than 2 hours long but it is really is worth a listen. I certainly don’t agree with everything but much sense is spoken particularly around identity politics and the medicalisation of children as being something we will look back on with abject horror. I am so glad that these debates are happening and on such a large platform.

1.7 million views,18,000 comments from a posting of 2 days ago.

When I read the title of this thread, it reminded me of the claim (typically from the right) that feminism was propagated to make labour cheaper -and destroy the family unit...
Don‘t get me wrong, I am very thankful that feminism and feminists fighting before me gave me the opportunity to live a free life, study,... I would have been so miserable being precluded from science... and still: it is clear our labour is cheaper than it was. For Most people, it is not like there is a choice of one partner staying home, as it was in former days ( or both Partners working 20 hours...). In summary we work more for less. And if Neoliberalism had its way, unrestrained, we‘d all work Globally, where our talents best fit at any point in time, in long distance relationships (if any at all) and the kids locked away in some 24/7 institution- of course privatized so that someone can make money from it and you basically use up your earnings to pay for it - les Miserables style.
Sorry for the rant. I sure wonder, what Agenda they believe transgenderism is meant to ram through...

Queen, yes I agree that there is no reason why all feminists should be left wing, and there are posters on here who argue from socially or economically right wing positions.

I also have the thousands of women chanting 'JK ROWLING' football crowd style, with hands up and out stretched. And we just won't stop 😃.

Wrong thread!!

@DryHeave

I think it’s ironic that capitalism - which relies on new entrants - places no worth on child rearing.

I would say that pure capitalism is entirely neutral on the matter. The ones placing 'no worth' on child rearing are individual citizens in a purely capitalist society, who are also perfectly free to support parents if they can be convinced of the value of supporting them.

If a society is expected to play a greater role in supporting those rearing children then, equally, should those rearing children have the quality of their rearing assessed and shaped by the society providing that support (potentially against the wishes of the parent)? I remember hearing this question in some form during a debate about whether raising children is a public service or a private endeavour.

@queenofknives

It isn’t really odd that the right and feminists are in agreement on some issues.

It's not odd because feminism isn't aligned to the left. The suffragettes included many religious and conservative women. If feminism is simply the fight for women's rights, then it doesn't belong to any particular political movement.

Having said that, I just watched Julie Bindel debating on that Intelligence Squared event, and it made me decide I'm not a feminist anymore. She was saying that "no feminist worth her salt" could possibly align themselves with a conservative group and she was loudly arguing for men to be banned and cancelled if she deemed them to be unacceptable in their views. I was embarrassed for her and thought, I don't support this at all. I support women's rights and equal opportunities, but Julie Bindel has made me renounce feminism!

I'm sorry, JB occasionally talks some sense, but in general she uses exactly the kinds of tactics that the people she complains about use.

I'm sorry, JB occasionally talks some sense, but in general she uses exactly the kinds of tactics that the people she complains about use.

I'd have to agree, and I used to really respect her.

Yep. At one point she said "I don't talk about trans issues" when she had literally spent the last five minutes reeling off example after example of TRAs having a go at women. I don't disagree that all the examples were awful but I thought, god, at least be honest, that's what you're talking about! And maybe try to have some perspective and imagine that you and your friends are not the only victims of this, and that you are literally calling for these same tactics to be used against people you don't like! It was just really stupid.

I do think JB has worked on some good campaigns and that's great. But I listened to what she had to say and thought, no, I don't agree with this. I listened to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and thought, there is someone who knows exactly what she's talking about, and is an excellent clear thinker. She defended free speech and Kehinde Andrews yelled 'mein kampf' at her. But JB wouldn't have a problem with that, because she stated over and over again she thinks people should be cancelled if they don't go along with the woke orthodoxy (unless they are feminists). It was all honestly a bit sickening.

I remember hearing this question in some form during a debate about whether raising children is a public service or a private endeavour.

I think it has to be both, but I don't think there should be some kind of ofsted for parents (can you imagine!) I do think, though, that part of the burden on mothers is the breakdown of traditional communities and the way many families now are individual units where the mother is cut off from many sources of support. In working class communities, child rearing was something of a communal activity. If one mum wasn't up to it, kids often had friend's mums who helped out. Everyone looked after babies. I think as society has progressed and we've lost that communal element, it's much harder on mums as they don't have the support network. They can't just hand the baby to a neighbour, or let the local kids take the baby out in the pram. You see women posting on MN all the time who only have their partners to rely on, and it's overwhelmingly stressful if the partner doesn't step up.

I think maybe women could have a bit more access to the world of work and public life while still also having kids if we had held on to those community networks and that sense of shared responsibility for children. (I'm not saying that was a perfect system, at all - just that mothers need support.)

In working class communities, child rearing was something of a communal activity. If one mum wasn't up to it, kids often had friend's mums who helped out. Everyone looked after babies. I think as society has progressed and we've lost that communal element, it's much harder on mums as they don't have the support network. They can't just hand the baby to a neighbour, or let the local kids take the baby out in the pram.
This right here 👏 brings back happy memories, we all had each others backs and the community pulled together. Funnily enough as kids we couldn't be too naughty as any of the "parents" could tell us off.

Funnily enough as kids we couldn't be too naughty as any of the "parents" could tell us off.
Yes! Hahaha! I remember that well. "Go and play up your own end!" being the cry of the grumpy people on our street. And if someone had a baby, the girls would go round and clamour to be allowed to take the baby out in the pram. We thought we were getting a treat and had no idea that the mum was probably delighted to get an hour to herself!

Why on earth shouldn't people read Mein Kampf? There are other reasons for people to read it other than they are literal nazis themselves Or do they think people are so weak-minded that they'll be swayed by Hitler's writings? Ffs.

We thought we were getting a treat and had no idea that the mum was probably delighted to get an hour to herself!
Totally, I remember looking after my cousins and a neighbours kids during the holidays so the parents could work, the neighbour was so happy and we had so much fun!

Sunset Well, quite. Kehinde Andrews is insufferably woke. He didn't even prepare for the debate, just spoke off the cuff in a rambling style, and had no coherent argument. At one point he declared that universities were the most racist, white supremacist and bigoted places on earth! And if we didn't know that, then we can't have been to university. Universities! I thought that was so insane. He's a university lecturer, apparently the creator of the first 'black studies' course. But the university is such a racist institution that his daily life is one of horrendous oppression and terror, such that the very idea of free speech sounds to him like fascism.

Honestly, I thought he was unhinged. I've read a lot about how woke theories have taken hold of sensible people but it still amazed me that someone so incoherent and clearly paranoid could be treated as an authority on anything. It was a little bit disturbing.

Bending back to the original topic (sorry), just watched this interview and discussion with Glenn Greenwald, talking about what on earth the American "liberal" establishment's problem is with Joe Rogan.

They spend some time going into the whole "transphobia" and Abigail Shrier thing.

Glenn appears to be gradually coming around - he's recognising how ridiculous so many "transphobia" claims are, and he is accurately addressing the actual points of the arguments that have come up on Rogan's show (fairness in sports, potential harm to children).

As he says, Rogan and his own views are far less interesting than the reaction to him, and what it reveals about others...

The answer given is, quite accurately, I think: "the most important thing he lacks is the willingness to exclude everyone else from the debate who isn't a part of that culture."

Some of the shrillest, most fanatical voices on social media are enraged because Joe Rogan dares to host an eclectic, interesting guest list. Instead of the left wing circle jerk who dominate CNN et al. When they can't exert narrative control, the wheels come off the pram and denunciations follow. It's laughable.

Seeing the reactions makes you re-evaluate. Just as seeing the whole trans debacle has made me realise how much some men really do hate women - ("the greatest patriarchal unmasking you can imagine" - JCJ), watching the American "left" melt down over the last few years has basically proven right all that stuff about "sneering Hollywood elites" American conservatives have been going on about.

In both cases I thought there was some truth, but it was being somewhat overblown. But the current reality is now clearly worse than what I used to regard as feminist/conservative caricatures.

Seeing the reactions makes you re-evaluate

I think this is true. I wonder if some of the most vocal Social Justice acolytes understand how their tactics are alienating millions of voters? I think not. That would require critical thinking, self reflection and exposure to views beyond the echo chamber. There is zero evidence that any of those conditions exist.

That would require critical thinking

I teach critical thinking skills and it's always struck me that most people are naturally very good at it once given some direction (and permission to actually explore ideas). But the angriest social justice people just cannot get it. You explain a trap, they immediately fall into it. You describe a logical fallacy, they immediately commit it. It's clear that social justice indoctrination degrades people's critical faculties to the point where they can only emote and sloganeer. It's depressing. Especially because they are invariably the loudest people in the room.

DM has quite a clever take on the Trans issue, to say it is sooo interesting, and we need to have proper discussion, which I would agree with but unfortunately anyone calm enough to have a proper discussion is not coming to the fore as yet. It puts him nicely on the fence.
Is it misogynistic to say women have babies. But it's all very well to be so in awe and admiring of the fact, but not come up with any suggestion as to what women will live off whilst having these babies.
And that women choose different careers from men - but not address that jobs popular with women are, surprise, surprise, lower paid overall.

And the more the Democrats push these ideas, the more they are pushing voters towards Trump. People don't want to admit they're voting Trump because of the unhinged response and insults that come their way. They'll just do it quietly and it'll be done.

Yep. I have no doubt that Trump will be re elected because of this. And it really shouldn't be a surprise to democrats but it will be. They need to start listening to people instead of throwing their toys out of the pram when they lose. I live in the US but don't have a vote. If I did, I definitely wouldn't vote for trump, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote Biden either. There has to be a better option. If I voiced this opinion to some people I would be labeled a racist and probably ghosted lol. But honestly, I think that most rational left leaning people are like Rogan but too afraid to say it.

@Straven123

DM has quite a clever take on the Trans issue, to say it is sooo interesting, and we need to have proper discussion, which I would agree with but unfortunately anyone calm enough to have a proper discussion is not coming to the fore as yet. It puts him nicely on the fence. Is it misogynistic to say women have babies. But it's all very well to be so in awe and admiring of the fact, but not come up with any suggestion as to what women will live off whilst having these babies. And that women choose different careers from men - but not address that jobs popular with women are, surprise, surprise, lower paid overall.

DM's take on the trans issue is that self-ID is nonsense and women's spaces and language needs to be protected. Not sure how you could call that sitting on the fence.

I also wouldn't say he's in awe or admiring of the fact that women have babies, although Rogan certainly waxed lyrical about it! I agree that he doesn't address the fact that many jobs that women choose are lower paid in this interview, and perhaps that reflects his lack of deeper insight into women's issues, as was discussed earlier in the thread. But generally, I think you'd be misrepresenting DM if you were trying to argue he doesn't address important, controversial issues.

I think it has to be both, but I don't think there should be some kind of ofsted for parents (can you imagine!)

Certainly, I don't think a binary question requires a binary answer. On the Ofsted point, what if parenting were turned into a profession? That is, parents could choose to raise their children privately, with the state only offering the level of support it does at the moment while only interfering to the point of safeguarding but also offering the opportunity for public parenting support. A parent could register, be supported in producing a body of work to demonstrate competence and then be rewarded with both direct financial compensation (amounting to a genuine professional salary) and transferable training opportunities for when they wish to re-enter the workforce. As part of raising their child(ren), they would then feed back what steps they have taken towards their child's development, with a points system for specific approved activities (e.g. cultural enrichment), similar to the CPD of some professions.

I realise that, on first reading, this may sound bonkers but I think that, if the state were to provide such a high level of support for parents, it follows that they should expect the best possible return on their investment (i.e. well rounded, well educated citizens) as well as value for money.

But the angriest social justice people just cannot get it. You explain a trap, they immediately fall into it. You describe a logical fallacy, they immediately commit it. It's clear that social justice indoctrination degrades people's critical faculties to the point where they can only emote and sloganeer

queen

That's such an accurate description. The mindless slogans. The puritanical self righteousness. The authoritarian demands. Like Andrew Sullivan says, 'We're all on campus now.'

@queenofknives Yes, DM is very straightforward on the Trans issue - thankfully he's gay, I think that let's him away with saying lots of things he'd otherwise get ignored or slated for.
I think he's overdone the botox a bit!