Douglas Murray on Joe Rogan: “Politicians are using trans rights as a bartering ram for something else”.

[RandomGel]

More light. In this podcast Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray discuss many issues but there is a great discussion on identity politics.

Quite rightly Douglas Murray describes politicians as using trans rights as a battering ram for something else.

Joe Rogan refers to the TRA mantra “there is no such thing as biological sex” as ridiculous.

It’s heartening to see Abigail Shearer and Debra Soh referenced and praised for taking a stand, living their truth and refusing to go along with the crowd.

It is longer than 2 hours long but it is really is worth a listen. I certainly don’t agree with everything but much sense is spoken particularly around identity politics and the medicalisation of children as being something we will look back on with abject horror. I am so glad that these debates are happening and on such a large platform.

1.7 million views,18,000 comments from a posting of 2 days ago.

@Floisme

I am still puzzled as to why Joe Rogan is seen by some as a Trump supporter. Can anyone explain?

floisme

I would like to see the explanation too. His 'crime' seems to be having a diversity of guests; including Douglas Murray and Ben Shapiro etc. In purity politics that's not allowed, as you already said. It's crazy to say he's a Trump supporter, but if Trump wins, certain 'activists' should ponder their contribution to his victory.

So is this really the reason? That he talks to the wrong people?

@Floisme

So is this really the reason? That he talks to the wrong people?

I can't think of any other reason for claiming he is a Trump supporter. He is critical of both Biden and the bizarre, fascist tactics of the so called anti fascists. The Washington DC episode exemplifies this. Do any of these authoritarian clowns have access to a mirror? Or a history book? It's incredible.

The right is against self-ID because it runs against their Gilead vision of the future

I’m not what you’d call right-wing, but moving increasingly towards it these days.

I think it’s more of a freedom of speech and an adherence towards objectivity (instead of subjective feelings). The Christian Right in the US has poisoned the well, but I don’t think it represents the majority of conservative opinion.

I am still puzzled as to why Joe Rogan is seen by some as a Trump supporter

I believe it’s because he’s said he’d not vote for Biden. But I think he usually goes third-party anyway. At the end of the day, voting in American is a secret ballot. He can say whatever, as we have no idea what he’ll do come Election Day (and is it really our business?).

@Kantastic

Their conclusion was women can't have it all - family and work - without ever considering why men magically can.

I don't know whether I am giving Rogan too much credit, but I really liked and appreciated what he had to say about women and motherhood and I took away a different message. I understood him to say that plugging motherhood into our current capitalist system and treating it like it's a hobby women do on the side doesn't work. And this is true! I haven't listened to him talk about this before but I actually got a sense that unlike most men, he respects and honours motherhood and respects the ways in which women's bodies are different from men's. I really think for women to be liberated requires a fundamental re-organisation of our society that truly values the work of motherhood and caring. Not that all women have to do that, but most women do end up doing care work at some point in their lives, and it's feminine coded work for, ultimately, a biological reason. Rogan's analysis was extremely similar to mine as far as it went.

Though I guess he would probably not agree with me that motherhood is devalued because patriarchy relies on exploiting women's work for free and our current social structures would not be able to function if women's labour was valued and rewarded. Nonetheless I was very surprised because I know he's got a bit of a reputation for misogyny but I didn't get that feeling off him at all.

Murray talking about women, I don't like. Got a really weird vibe off him on the Triggernometry podcast, reeling off a list of mens' fantasies about predatory women as if they were real, with a little glint in his eye. But I think he too is right about motherhood. It should be at the centre of feminism, and it wasn't centred, and that's how we ended up with the man-pandering mess that passes for feminism today.

Yes, I agree.

Particularly about how feminism would do well to centre and value motherhood and that in order for women to truly liberated we need to rethink how we structure society placing higher priority on motherhood and caring.

Everything starts with how we treat pregnant and birthing women, how we support the wellbeing of mothers and babies, how we nurture child mental health and wellbeing within families and education. All that comes after that starts there. Motherhood and childhood. Mothering is not a hobby. All mothers should be able to choose freely between paid work or not alongside motherhood.

So is this really the reason? That he talks to the wrong people?

Yes, precisely. I’ve linked to this article before. He is considered part of the ‘gateway to the far right’.

www.theguardian.com/media/2018/sep/18/report-youtubes-alternative-influence-network-breeds-rightwing-radicalisation

The right is against self-ID because it runs against their Gilead vision of the future

That's nonsense.

I can't see Joe Rogan named in that article unless he's in that spider's web thing that I can't read properly?

But if he really is labelled as a Trump / alt right supporter simply because of some the people he talks to then I despair. It seems to me that someone like Rogan probably has a better insight than many into what makes Trump voters tick. That should make him an asset, not a pariah.

@Floisme

I can't see Joe Rogan named in that article unless he's in that spider's web thing that I can't read properly?

But if he really is labelled as a Trump / alt right supporter simply because of some the people he talks to then I despair. It seems to me that someone like Rogan probably has a better insight than many into what makes Trump voters tick. That should make him an asset, not a pariah.

I’ve cropped the image So hopefully you can see it. Yes, Joe Rogan is in there.

Ah thanks McKenna my eyesight is turning to shit. So that makes him adjacent-right I assume? Or is it right-adjacent?
Either way I'm not going to live to see another left of centre government am I?

I enjoy listening to Douglas Murray, I think he makes a lot of sense and it's rare to hear a talking head that is articulate (ironically enough). But, perhaps because I've listened to him a lot recently, I have started to wonder what positive solutions he offers.
At the end of The Madness of Crowds, he suggests that forgiveness is the way forward. Not constantly trawling through what people have said in the past and berating them with it (after having interpreted it in bad faith). I think he's right. But his broadcasts just go on and on about the same thing with precious little forgiveness in view.

About the positioning of motherhood within Feminism, previous comments are right on this. I remember, way back when I had my children, the way that people like Harriet Harman made me feel valueless because I chose (and was able) to look after my own children instead of being a cog in the money-making machine.

I was at uni with Murray. I didn't like him, he was quite the misogynist but then so was every other bloke in the place

TheRealMcKenna

That diagram just shows the insularity and fanaticism which dominates parts of public discourse. Crimes of adjacency are really tedious. So Joe Rogan is a gateway drug to Ben Shapiro? One thing this clearly demonstrates is a terror of ideas which question or challenge left wing orthodoxy. What brittle faith in their own views the proponents of this demonstrate.

He was offering a solution: that silent majority stop being silent. The Vaclav Havel story was inspiring, and made me speak up on something yesterday when I would have normally avoided it. We all need to do this. He was right, every time we don't, it diminishes us, and allows another step forward in authoritarianism.
He also says he has contempt for those in public life who say they can't speak up.

When we will all start speaking up??

TBF Joe Rogan was my gateway to Ben Shapiro...

I think Murray is shakier on the issues around women, and he kind of admitted that. I think he evidently has not deeply thought about the impact of female biology on the roles of women and the discrepancies which arise from this and the disadvantage that place women in.

Rogan is seen as a Trump supporter as he doesn't purely tow the line of evil bad man, all the time. He is critical of Trump, regards him as ridiculous, but may occasionally acknowledge something OK he's done and criticize the left instead.
So obviously a fascist.

It makes me want to eat my own head in frustration. The fact that Rogan doesn't live in a left wing bubble, isn't afraid to talk to people on the right, sometimes acknowledges that they have a point - all those things mean give him an understanding of how they think.
How are the left going to get people to change their minds without dialogue?

At the beginning of this year Rogan made a comment that he was going to vote for Bernie Sanders. It was clipped and tweeted by someone (can’t remember who).

The Bernie Sanders campaign sent it out themselves.

Which made Bernie Sanders basically a transphobe.

How dare he appeal to the wrong sort of voter?

I do enjoy most of what Murray is saying these days.

The “sign on the Greengrocer’s wall” reminded me of the fantastic piece about pronouns being rohypnol, written by a fabulous mumsnetter. The analogy was exactly right. Using cooerced pronouns might seem like a small concession but it really isn’t. It’s demoralising.

Some gay men because they are not attracted to women have a utilitarian view of women and it seems the boundaries we erect around ourselves and children for safety and protection, as well as privacy they just find irritating and killjoyish. Murray doesn't seem to have empathy for women as perhaps for him we are mothers rather than sexual, attractive beings. Joe enjoys connecting to women a lot more and as a husband (not sure if he is a father) has a ringside seat and I'm sure gets some strong opinions from his wife if she is anything like him. And he's also had so-called controversial women such as Debta Soh and Abigail Sheirer on his show. I am sure he would welcome Kelly Jay Keen (Posie Parker) on his show too. At least he is pro free speech.
I like to hear Murray's POV but he can also be arrogant and dismissive in a patronizing way.

Sure, arrogant, dismissive and patronizing, but less than most of the SJWs are. And with plenty of redeeming features like intellectual honesty and curiosity and fairness.

Check out his - that was interesting. Bret is very much of the left, while Murray is of the right, but they're united in being liberal, not authoritarian.

Bret has an good point that being a "progressive" (or even a radical) is not an absolute position; it's a relative one. An honest "progressive" or "radical" should want to become a conservative, in the sense of wanting to become someone trying to conserve progress once it has been made.

So Weinstein vs Murray is a good old-fashioned political discussion about "where we are" versus "where we want to be" with practical considerations of "will this policy actually work in practice?"

Whereas the current Woke view has blatant misreadings of where we are, no proper consideration of how much progress has been made, and is trying to hamfistedly enact policies that don't look like they'll help, and is accusing anyone who objects of being bigots, as if all criticism of them is inherently unfounded. Because they just know they're right. That just can't work, except as an authoritarian dictatorship. If you can't accept that your opponents have valid views, you can't do democracy.

I accept that the Woke's views are valid, in the sense that they believe them, but I disagree with their conclusions, and their policy proposals should be debated to thrash them out. But "no debate!"

I am surprised people think Joe Rogan is right wing. He says he is left wing and he did endorse Bernie. He has three teenage daughters so will be well used to the robust exchange of female opinion .

I can’t listen to Douglas Murray. I don’t get the love in for him on here. He is just awful on everything else apart from the transgender issue. I think it is because he is a very privileged white gay man and he supports his own interests. So he understands that transitioning kids is conversion therapy and the homophobia behind the ideology but doesn’t challenge the rest of the crap.

I don't get the love for him on here.

Oh, come on, he's just tweeted:

Claims that the new novel by jk_rowling features a murderous cross-dresser seem not to have hurt sales. So I should like to make it clear that 'The Madness of Crowds' is absolutely packed with murderous cross-dressers. Can't move for them. Main point of the book, etc.

I have seen plenty of interviews with Douglas Murray and Bret Weinstein, I am not at all saying I don't agree with him and am glad to hear his POV but in that interview with Joe his says Feminism hasn't wanted to talk about motherhood. This is just not true. We know that women have been talking about motherhood and how incompatible it is with the demands of late Capitalism on families for decades. Those voices just don't get heard.

I just saw pop up on my YouTube a suggestion to watch Good Morning Britain (I am in the USA) where Piers & Susannah talk about #RIPJKRowling. As per usual Susannah is the ONLY woman present talking about trans issues even in a discussion about a famous woman! We have RoseofDawn, who did an excellent job, George Galloway and that insane rabid journalist Benjamin Butterworth.

It seems only men are allowed to be the "voice of reason" in the shape of Rose & Piers.

That's what I dislike about these conversations. I am glad they are happening, but the idea that women haven't been voicing their critiques is just BS.

What the trans debate has shown us all so clearly is how hard it is for women to have our voices heard and are even allowed to speak. So much of the time every "great thinker" and expert - even on issues that most affect women - are male.

I thought it is a given that we are anti authoritarian. Thats the point of all this push back and why Trump could win the election over here, the Left are showing their authoritarian tendencies are more scary than the Right at the moment.

Its also generational as Murray says so well in this interview, the take over of University humanity departments for decades of the Woke POV has now produced a generation that doesn't understand where identity politics and Gender Ideology is leading.

I think it's pointless to think in terms of left and right and the old tribalisms. It's totalitarians versus liberals and that's it. Liberals don't all agree on everything, but that's kind of the point. Freedom to discuss and explore and debate ideas is part of what they stand for. That's why Bret Weinstein can talk to Douglas Murray and Joe Rogan can talk to Candace Owens and so on.

I do get frustrated with a lot of the discussions about women because I think often they miss the point, or they miss important points, that people like Heather Heying often add to the discussion. But to be honest, I do see most of the liberals being open to discussions with women and giving them a voice. Rogan has had Abigail Shrier on recently, for example. Triggernometry went to Posie's podcast and fell over themselves apologising for not getting it sooner and saying how her episode is their most popular ever. So women's voices are in there. But yes, it can be frustrating to hear these wonderful men talking on stuff that they could only have heard from women. (I do notice James Lindsay never takes sole credit for his book with Helen Pluckrose, even though interviewers often seem to 'forget' she's the co-author.)

I actually agree that feminism skimmed over motherhood a bit and there was a seeming division between women who wanted to be mums and so-called 'career women'. I don't think the divide was manufactured by feminism, but I don't think feminists did enough for women who were seen to kind of let the side down a bit by wanting to fall in love with a man and make babies - there was a kind of scornfulness expressed towards those women, which you can still see in some quarters today.

Thats the point of all this push back and why Trump could win the election over here, the Left are showing their authoritarian tendencies are more scary than the Right at the moment.

I'm not in the US, but if I were, I'd be seriously considering voting for Trump. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't win.