Douglas Murray on Joe Rogan: “Politicians are using trans rights as a bartering ram for something else”.

[RandomGel]

More light. In this podcast Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray discuss many issues but there is a great discussion on identity politics.

Quite rightly Douglas Murray describes politicians as using trans rights as a battering ram for something else.

Joe Rogan refers to the TRA mantra “there is no such thing as biological sex” as ridiculous.

It’s heartening to see Abigail Shearer and Debra Soh referenced and praised for taking a stand, living their truth and refusing to go along with the crowd.

It is longer than 2 hours long but it is really is worth a listen. I certainly don’t agree with everything but much sense is spoken particularly around identity politics and the medicalisation of children as being something we will look back on with abject horror. I am so glad that these debates are happening and on such a large platform.

1.7 million views,18,000 comments from a posting of 2 days ago.

I agree on the Right/Left divide.

When it comes to motherhood it wasn't just Feminism so many of the political parties focused on issues about individualism and not about what helps families and therefore women but also men who want to have a balanced life too. The Left in the UK & US abandoned class analysis and talking about economics and this is where we have ended up, with identity politics dividing us unhelpfully and many ordinary people of all backgrounds and ages feeling this politics doesn't speak to them, and in fact alienates them.

Also, in all these discussions of the "structures of power" the one that is always ignored or not discussed is male sexual desire. So much of the Trans issue is about men getting to fulfill their sexual desires. But that is never talked about, instead there is the fake narrative that white men in dresses are oppressed by "cissexism". The massive lies while leaving children and reproduction completely out of the equation is massively disturbing and disrupting. And a lot of people don't really understand what is going on, or what the ideas are underlying so much activism.

They do see that family is now being demonized by BLM and many on the Left and that common sense has left the building. It was this kind of nonsense that played out during Brexit where the rest of the country rejected what they felt were ideas being imposed on them. This is also happening in the USA. None of the mainstream like the NYT, CNN and the LA Times have examined seriously WHY people voted for Trump and right now they are doing what happened in 2016 with Hilary, crowing about how Biden will win while ignoring huge swaths of the country. The election won't be won in California or New York who always vote Democrat, it will be won in swing states by lots of ordinary Americans that are ignored by those dominating the narrative.

Dana White (Rogan's lookilikey and colleague at UFC) is a big Trump supporters. Perhaps people are mixing them up.

@queenofknives

Thats the point of all this push back and why Trump could win the election over here, the Left are showing their authoritarian tendencies are more scary than the Right at the moment.

I'm not in the US, but if I were, I'd be seriously considering voting for Trump. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't win.

Me too. When you see BME store owners boarding up and having to write on them "Please dont burn this shop, Family with children living upstairs" its not Trump voters that they are worried about.

I've not yet got around to reading Douglas Murray's book and having heard this I won't be bothering. Just googled his details. He's Eton, Magdalen (about as posh as you can get) and he's Conservative through and through. He's no friend to women, as various people here have identified: he's the kind of gay man who knows that women are technically the same species and technically merit respect but doesn't feel it. He's gay but he shows precious little solidarity with the gay community. As a PP pointed out, he used to be director of the Centre for Social Cohesion and seemed to ask for tolerance and forgiveness, but he does so from the position of an immensely privileged and entitled white man looking down at the current conflicts in the US with a kind of 'who are these crazy people?' attitude. Wouldn't trust him an inch.

So, Shedbuilder what ideologically-pure figure has stood up for gender-critical women? For the life of me, I can't think of anybody in the Labour Party. The Left have utterly shafted women on this.
And, tbh, I don't think you've actually checked out anything he's said.

I have certainly checked out what he's said: I've just listened to nearly two hours-worth and I've heard him in more concentrated bites elsewhere. Long form has been very revealing. He's less palatable when he's allowed to talk at length.

I'm as critical of the Labour Party as you, MaMaLa321 — probably more so being a disgruntled former Labour voter.

Murray's comments about Christine Lagarde and women in business are misogynistic — and so, by the way, are Rogan's. There's been plenty of research that indicates that women tend to be less risk inclined and more careful with money than men. Difficult to imagine a female Fred the Shred.

Murray name-checks Soh and Abigail Shearer, but only because they agree with and support his views. Interested in trans issues purely from a dressing up and male perspective: not a mention of transmen that I heard. No interest in women's rights. He may be speaking out against transgender ideology but he's not speaking from a woman-friendly pov. Indeed he's flippantly scathing about analysing things from a female perspective and regards it as divisive. We must all look at things from the male pov because he regards male as the neutral default.

He says Posie Parker lives in a northern town in his book, which for me completely undermined its credibility. Where’s the fact checking?

I like Douglas Murray very much and mostly find myself nodding along when he's critiquing various groups, but I do bridle when he talks about women. And then I remind myself that all those various groups whose critiquing I nodded along to would have rejected the bit that critiqued them. I believe it doesn't hurt to examine your own deeply held views now and then to make sure you aren't creating your own blind spots.

I enjoy Joe Rogan and admire his openness to learning from his guests. He seems to me really listen and try to understand why people hold the views they do.

As Self ID is not being proposed in America or by Joe Biden I am rather shocked to see two presumably feminist posters on this thread say they’d vote for Donald Trump who is a misogynist whose been accused multiple times of sexual assault.

Maybe Joe Rogan is the start of a rabbit hole.

On every other quote I've seen from him he's a fracking Trumpist

You really ought to listen to that podcast. He gave me every impression that he thought Trump was a tosser.

I thought it well worth a listen. (Which surprised me as its really long!!). I think some of what they are saying is hyperbole, particularly the "end time" stuff, but it was really thought provoking, didn't agree with it all, but really well worth a listen.

At the end they concluded no one should be held back in life by a characteristic over which they have no control. Societies should be meritocratic and some people need more help than others to reach their full potential.

I also liked the bigging up of women as creators of life. We are. They were clear to say other life choices are equally valid.

Erm, so if this is alt right "fascism " that should be silenced...... then DAMNNNNNNNNN.

One this for sure, we've shown here (as have mumsnet HQ) that we'll never bow down to the idea biological sex isn't real.

Turnitonagain what about the big piece of "Equality" legislation that's at the federal level. I don't know much about it but I believe "gender-identity" is going to be part of that. Also I don't live in CA but have family there and I think there has been bills passed there such as prisoners being placed in the prison that matches their gender-identity etc. There definitely is a lot if self-ID type of law in the 3 Pacific Coast states. In Oregon 15 yr old girls can remove their breasts without their parents consent. So there definitely are serious concerns where Gender Ideology is being unquestioningly adopted by the Democrats.

DM is indeed Eton + Magdalen educated, but if it matters, he appears to have gotten into Eton (and previous school) on a scholarship. So he has privilege, due to his education and maleness, however, it's not like he grew up with a country pile and I've no doubt that being gay wasn't exactly a passport to the top all the time either.

However, undeniably, his education has moulded him in a way that almost automatically gives him a platform, whatever he chose to do.

I agree with PPs about his stance on women. I do enjoy listening to someone intelligent though. I don't agree with him, but the fact he's up for debate and can articulate his stance (better than I can mine) is something I find - sadly - refreshing.

@Wishingstarr what about abortion and access to contraception which Trump and the judges he appoints are trying to end?

You cannot be a feminist and support Trump, it is madness.

Last week Trump provisionally agreed to do a 4 hour debate against Biden with Rogan as the host. That's why the attacks on him have increased with many think pieces on how "racist" and "sexist" Rogan is to give the Biden camp an excuse to decline.
Rogan is a classic Liberal in the "I may disagree with what you have to say but will defend your right to say it" sense so is incompatible with cancel culture where words = violence. The modern left rules by fear and a "listen to us only" cult like culture. Reminds me of this video of a former Dem voting knitter
m.youtube.com/watch?v=_lp7lh1x5uI

MaMaLa321
I remember, way back when I had my children, the way that people like Harriet Harman made me feel valueless because I chose (and was able) to look after my own children instead of being a cog in the money-making machine
I remember that vividly. I bitterly resented the vibe (which also came my way from a supposedly feminist SIL) that I wasn't doing anything useful, and hated the pressure to go back to 'work' - as if I wasn't working my arse off (I worked part time from home as well).

It did occur to me at the time that one reason that 'housewives' were held in such low esteem was because we weren't the journalists and politicians: we were largely voiceless.

It made it very clear to me that our biology and our urge to care for our kids are the root of our oppression, which is one of the things that makes me so suspicious of the trans issue: a transwoman is never going to be oppressed in the same way as a natal woman. Whether trans rights are being used as a battering ram, I dunno. Need to to listen to the interview.

I am not a Trump supporter! I am just saying there are problems with the Democrats and they are supporting self-ID and the apparent redefinition of womanhood. Just because I critique the Democrats and can tell you why others are supporting Trump doesn't mean I support him. I am sure you can say why people support the Right Wing in your country and problems on the Left, doesn't mean you support them.

Having issues with the Democrats on gender is not the same as saying “If I were American I’d vote Trump.”

To those making those idiotic statements please read Joe Biden’s platform. There is NOTHING resembling Self ID there. joebiden.com/lgbtq-policy/

If you support women you cannot support Trump. His policies are an attack on women’s role in society, health, and safety.

I never said that. And I AM in the USA!

Well luckily for me I'm not in the US so I don't have to make the decision. But plenty of women voted for Trump last time and I would bet money even more will do so this time. Things can change fast in politics but the way this is going, I don't see Biden winning. People don't want wokeness, they don't want to abolish the police, they don't want riots and politicians who take a knee. And Trump isn't the only one accused of sexual assaults either! Even if you decided to vote 'as a feminist' I'm not sure it would make it any simpler.

I agree with pp who said Murray's views about women/feminism are challenging. That's how I feel. I think he gets some of it wrong but he always makes me think and reflect on my beliefs and opinions.

I’m addressing the posts by others but I did respond to you once only.

I'm just responding generally to the conversation.

I did read the Biden document. I don't like the way it casually refers to suicide statistics in the LGBT community, and I think this supports Self ID, fairly clearly

Affirm one’s gender marker and expand access to accurate identification documents. Transgender and non-binary people without identification documents that accurately reflect their gender identity are often exposed to harassment and violence and denied employment, housing, critical public benefits, and even the right to vote. The Obama-Biden State Department led the way by updating its gender change policies for passports. As President, Biden will build on this action to ensure all transgender individuals have access to identification documents that accurately reflect their gender identity. Biden believes every transgender or non-binary person should have the option of changing their gender marker to “M,” “F,” or “X” on government identifications, passports, and other documentation. He will support state and federal efforts to allow for this accurate representation.

Isn't that Self-ID?

That would be hard to read as anything other than self ID. But it's not surprising as that's always been more or less the Democrat position. They are going for woke and accusing everyone who doesn't support them of being racist... that's my impression, anyway. And I don't see how they stand a chance in hell. People won't admit to voting Trump, they'll just do it quietly.

turnitonagain do you still hold with To those making those idiotic statements please read Joe Biden’s platform. There is NOTHING resembling Self ID there