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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Douglas Murray on Joe Rogan: “Politicians are using trans rights as a bartering ram for something else”.

303 replies

RandomGel · 20/09/2020 15:23

More light. In this podcast Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray discuss many issues but there is a great discussion on identity politics.

Quite rightly Douglas Murray describes politicians as using trans rights as a battering ram for something else.

Joe Rogan refers to the TRA mantra “there is no such thing as biological sex” as ridiculous.

It’s heartening to see Abigail Shearer and Debra Soh referenced and praised for taking a stand, living their truth and refusing to go along with the crowd.

It is longer than 2 hours long but it is really is worth a listen. I certainly don’t agree with everything but much sense is spoken particularly around identity politics and the medicalisation of children as being something we will look back on with abject horror. I am so glad that these debates are happening and on such a large platform.

1.7 million views,18,000 comments from a posting of 2 days ago.

OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 27/09/2020 08:51

This is the board
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_book_club

TheRealMcKenna · 27/09/2020 08:52

I’d be happy to discuss the ‘Coddling of the American Mind’ seeing as I’ve just finished the audio book.

I’d also like to talk about Cynical Theories.

Those are my first two choices.

MalcolmTuckersBollockingface · 27/09/2020 08:52

I haven’t really been able to read fiction since doing an Eng Lit degree in the 90s. Likewise, I’ve never been sure why that is. I just assumed I got burnt out with critical theory and seeing everything through some revisionist lens. I tend to favour autobiographies and non-fiction now because it’s rare for a piece of fiction to capture my interest.

MalcolmTuckersBollockingface · 27/09/2020 08:54

I’ve downloaded Coddling of the American Mind audiobook thanks to the recommendations on here. I’m reading Cynical Theories now so I’m good for either of those.

Mollscroll · 27/09/2020 08:55

When I see this, I always start to think about my grandfather, who was a sailor in the Navy, and never went to university. He was, however, an educated man. Not in the university mode, but a type of person that I haven't encountered for some time but which seems to have been common. He had practical skills, but he knew his history and political theory cold, he was well read (Kipling was his favourite author, and Burns, but he read everything,) he was a beautiful writer and a stickler fr grammar, and he wooed his wife by writing her not bad poetry. And he wouldn't let anyone get away with less than a watertight argument which made him annoying

My dad is a bit like this. Grew up in a tiny remote village. Poor and working class. And didn’t go to university. But he’s very well read and ran online lessons in political theory for my nephew in lockdown. I asked him once where this started and he said that sometimes on the bus on the way to school which was an hour away, the vicar would sit next to him and they’d talk about books and ideas. I wonder who is the equivalent person now for working class boys today...

BovaryX · 27/09/2020 09:07

I love the idea of a book club, great suggestion. I agree with The Coddling of the American mind' and 'Cynical theories' I haven't read either, but intend to read both.

BovaryX · 27/09/2020 09:16

It's very interesting that many posters have commented on the dire state of contemporary literature. Many of us seem to gravitate towards history or analytical writing instead of fiction. Perhaps this is because the latter deal with matters beyond the interior landscape of the author?

queenofknives · 27/09/2020 09:19

Okay, sounds like Coddling and Cynical Theories are the first two choices. What do we think about starting two bookclub threads - one for each of those books? Or is it better to just focus on one at a time?

queenofknives · 27/09/2020 09:23

@BovaryX

It's very interesting that many posters have commented on the dire state of contemporary literature. Many of us seem to gravitate towards history or analytical writing instead of fiction. Perhaps this is because the latter deal with matters beyond the interior landscape of the author?
I think that is definitely a big part of it. I think that contemporary literature is often extremely well-written, in the sense that it does all the sentence-level things it's supposed to do. But there isn't much soul in it, for want of a better word. Writers won't take any risks, they're scared of being cancelled if they don't cover the woke talking points or if they write about a character who isn't woke. But it's more than just that. It's something about the lack of conviction. A kind of soulless, futile, empty pointlessness. I don't know what it is - you can tell, because I keep throwing more words at it! I think it's a kind of fake though, as JohnRoke said earlier about academics. Writers are doing the same kind of faking.
queenofknives · 27/09/2020 09:29

I wonder who is the equivalent person now for working class boys today...

Maybe Jordan Peterson? I think there's often no one like this in boys' daily lives but JP is really quite a good role model for young lads. Sometimes there are teachers who are like this - I had a male teacher who was really great and the boys looked up to him. But all the male teachers I know these days are wokesters who are teaching children and young people that white males like them are the source of all evil.

Your dad sounds like a great person, Moll.

BovaryX · 27/09/2020 09:39

Moll

the vicar would sit next to him and they’d talk about books and ideas. I wonder who is the equivalent person now for working class boys today...

That is a very interesting point. The vicar was the catalyst for your father's intellectual development and as you suggest, what is very sad is it is difficult to imagine that scenario today. Another vehicle for smart working class kids to reach their academic potential was Grammar schools.

JohnRokesmith · 27/09/2020 11:06

One of the interesting details about how people read fiction in the past is that there was no distinction between popular fiction and literary fiction. Working-class readers would be consuming the same books as middle-class readers. Classic literature gained that status because it was literature which people actually enjoyed, and became sufficiently embedded within popular culture that the books would be remembered for generations afterwards.

In the mid-twentieth century, however, you have a bifurcation, where you end up with popular fiction and literary fiction. Then, as time has gone on, literary fiction has become more rarefied, into what we have today. My feeling, is that literary fiction doesn't actually exist for an audience, but for the self-image of the writer. Most writers of fiction in the past had life experiences that fed into their writing; now the best we can normally expect is that someone has been a lifestyle journalist, or waited tables whilst a student. They want to be a published author of literary fiction, because of the status it bestows, but they have nothing interesting or meaningful to say.

One reason why bad books are published, is that they are generally commissioned unwritten, based on a pitch. And, of course, what is going to assist your pitch more than the ability to perform authorship, and the acquisition of the right credentials, in the form of a creative writing course. So, we have ended up with a situation where people go off to university to study postgraduate writing courses, where they learn to be an author, but don't learn anything about how to write a book which people might actually want to read.

(The publication of academic monographs is, I would argue, even worse; the normal print run is 500 copies, and the publisher aims to persuade academic libraries that they absolutely need to buy a copy for their collection at 75 pounds. No-one in the publishing industry pays attention to what actually appears within the book beyond how it can be sold to a library.)

One of my favourite pieces of writing on literature is Italo Calvino's essay "Why Read the Classics?" It's pretty short, running to a mere seven pages in my printed copy, but it's clear, lucid, and focused on the pleasure and engagement which comes from classic literature and is, indeed, one of the way he defines the classics. It was written in 1981, and I just can't see anyone discussing modern literary fiction in this manner.

JohnRokesmith · 27/09/2020 11:17

And as a postscript to my last comment:

Calvino's very interesting. His books are seen as important works in terms of the development of postmodernist literature, but they aren't books written to show off the author's cleverness. Calvino was resident in Italy in the Second World War, and joined the partisans in 1944. His postmodernism comes from the flexible notions of truth and certainty you acquire whilst working as part of a secret army in occupied territory. Many people who fought the Germans in such a manner were killed; but if you survived, your life was enriched by the challenges and threats inherent in this experience. It's a bit different from studying creative writing at Oxford Brookes.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 27/09/2020 11:43

Is it okay to join the bookclub as a possible non-reader of half the books? I already belong to a bookclub (20 mins book, 2 hrs chat, wonderful bunch of women who talk about anything) and I have a pretty busy life, but I'd love to be a hanger-on and see which books discussed I'd be up for reading. I'd like an excuse to have a go at The Madness of Crowds - I find DM provocative not in the sense that he winds people up on purpose (though I'm sure he does at times), but because he actually requires you to think along with him and decide if you agree or not.

But it's more than just that. It's something about the lack of conviction. A kind of soulless, futile, empty pointlessness.
It's the writing to an agenda, to tick the boxes. And getting a rave review for ticking the boxes, when the historical or geographical detail is utterly, well, er, wrong (I read one a while ago set where I have lived for most of my life and OMFG... The author hadn't even bothered to glance at Google Maps, never mind actually, yunno, visit...)

It's as if an author thinks, 'I know! I shall write a book about the sister of a famous male personage, and use this to discuss the role of women and their subjection in C17th England, and the terrible lives of the peasantry, and the way that religion caused untold suffering', and then they don't bother to create believable characters with any sort of nuance (to use that wanky academic word), or a credible plot line, or do their research so that they know what people wore and how they lived and what crops they grew (referring vaguely to 'corn').

As a result I end up reading an eclectic selection of factual books and the odd classic, and now and then some teen fiction recommended by the DC Blush

Stripesgalore · 27/09/2020 12:01

Queenofknives, do you want to set the thread up and be the sort of book club leader?

Give us a date to read the book by and discuss it on, that sort of thing.

BovaryX · 27/09/2020 12:08

Many people who fought the Germans in such a manner were killed; but if you survived, your life was enriched by the challenges and threats inherent in this experience. It's a bit different from studying creative writing at Oxford Brookes

That made me laugh! Thank you for the Calvino recommendation. I think the point you make about how the same books were read across different social stratas is an interesting one. Maybe the serialisation of books in magazines was one of the factors.

queenofknives · 27/09/2020 12:31

That is a great essay JohnRoke and I'd like to add it to our bookclub list as I would love to discuss it. I'm quite a fan of Calvino and also of Borges who I feel is of a similar tradition.

Grumpy I'm not sure - I see a lot of discussion about how you can only write what you personally have lived experience of, and people who misrepresent others or don't do the research get mercilessly trashed and cancelled. And then people who do do the research but the facts aren't popular also get mercilessly trashed and cancelled. Maybe it's the subject matter that makes a difference. Or maybe they can write what they want as long as it supports the 'correct' narrative. YA fiction is possibly the worst - I think it is really awful now as the woke have completely captured the publishing and bookselling in that genre. Jesse Singal did a good couple of articles investigating some of the meltdowns. It happened in SF/F writing too, some dozen years ago (although in a somewhat different form - predictably they were ahead of the curve!) which might account for the current lack of anything worth reading from that quarter.

queenofknives · 27/09/2020 12:35

@Stripesgalore

Queenofknives, do you want to set the thread up and be the sort of book club leader?

Give us a date to read the book by and discuss it on, that sort of thing.

Yes, happy to do that. Maybe someone else will volunteer to do the next one!

We do need to decide the book, though. I'm getting the feeling that The Coddling of the American Mind is coming out as the popular choice? Let me know if that's not what we want. And I'm thinking we aim for say 3 weeks before starting the discussion? I am happy to break it up into sections (haven't read the book so not sure how it's organised, but just thinking it might be good to break it down a bit so people who maybe haven't got time or want to take it slower can join in.)

MalcolmTuckersBollockingface · 27/09/2020 13:10

Happy with that suggestion @queenofknives (sorry don’t know how to quote specific parts of a post or tag without the @).

Perhaps if someone suggests an interesting book then they can co ordinate the discussion of that text. I would be happy to do that in the future.

Gladysthesphinx · 27/09/2020 13:14

Where will the thread be? Will it have to have a special home?

queenofknives · 27/09/2020 14:48

Okay, have set up a thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_book_club/4035292-THE-CODDLING-OF-THE-AMERICAN-MIND?watched=1 (Hope that link works!)

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 27/09/2020 15:08

queen
how you can only write what you personally have lived experience of, and people who misrepresent others or don't do the research get mercilessly trashed and cancelled. And then people who do do the research but the facts aren't popular also get mercilessly trashed and cancelled. Maybe it's the subject matter that makes a difference.
I think the subject matter definitely makes a difference. Misrepresent the rural working class of late Victorian England and nobody gives a shit. And unpopular facts don't go down well in some quarters.

Thanks for the thread. Heading over there now.

queenofknives · 27/09/2020 15:40

I've also opened a thread for suggestions so people can discuss which other books they're keen to read and discuss. And there's nothing at all to stop people opening new threads to discuss any of the books. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_book_club/4035322-Reading-suggestions?watched=1

Goosefoot · 27/09/2020 16:26

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

queen how you can only write what you personally have lived experience of, and people who misrepresent others or don't do the research get mercilessly trashed and cancelled. And then people who do do the research but the facts aren't popular also get mercilessly trashed and cancelled. Maybe it's the subject matter that makes a difference. I think the subject matter definitely makes a difference. Misrepresent the rural working class of late Victorian England and nobody gives a shit. And unpopular facts don't go down well in some quarters.

Thanks for the thread. Heading over there now.

I find historical fiction particularly difficult these days, as there seems to be zero attempt to actually credibly represent how people might actually have thought or felt. Tv set in historical circumstances is worse.

It's a chance to catch up on classics I've missed though. I discovered Graham Green a few years ago who I had never read before and I've enjoyed him immensely.

Antibles · 28/09/2020 09:52

I admit to being a total philistine when it comes to literary fiction and, sorry to lower the tone, I wasn't encouraged a while back when every other book of the handful I picked up had a passage in it describing a bloke wanking or ejaculating. It seemed to be quite the new fashion. Left me feeling grimy.

Plus the trend of writing in the present tense. I just can't take to it.

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