Is self ID finally off the table?

[TheFleegleHasLanded]

Sorry, no share token, hopefully one will be along soon:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/changing-gender-to-get-cheaper-but-self-identify-scheme-is-off-0twtdw5fr

It is a shame that the GRC is not being abolished except for those that already have it. We know no one can change sex, and the whole thing bout living as a woman etc is nonsense. Changing everything legally still leads to huge problems eg DBS checks , mistaken identity, attribution of male crimes to women, males in female hospital wards for women. To retain this illusion is misleading. But it is a start to recognise that there is real concern about losing our rights to say no.

@bellinisurge

My fear is, when this shit show of a government is finally undone, self-ID will become a talisman of proof that their replacement is NOT THEM. Constant vigilance, as Moody would say.

I also worry that Labour, once they're sure that selfID is going to be scrapped, will vocally rail against the Tories decision, in the knowledge that they won't have to deal with the consequences. Using it as a sign of how progressive they are while safely stuck as opposition. This will then be hard to row back from when/if they get in power.

Another problem with a two-party system, it creates and entrenches these ideological divides, instead of helping support everyone finding the workable middle ground. Turns these issues into totems, instead of actually trying to solve them.

@Datun

Trans people will continue to legally access name changes, public toilets, changing rooms etc, on the basis of self-determination.

Men can't acquire the protected characteristic of the female sex willy nilly, now.

Public attitude to the customs and protocols was always the basis for much of this.

This is just the beginning.

Challenges to the EHCR, stonewall law, the Tavistock, and the systematic reversal of regulatory capture has started.

And with this announcement, the government have indicated that not only are they listening to the public, they know how the system is being gamed.

Yes. This is great news. Trans activists have sought to compare their situation to the fight for gay rights, but there is zero comparison. Redefining the meaning of 'woman' to include intact males and insisting they be admitted to sex segregated spaces is nothing like previous equality battles. As you say, there are multiple emerging challenges to this and each one generates more negative headlines. This agenda tramples women's rights and has zero public support.

Yes as @TheFleegleHasLanded and @highame point out, we have a very interesting week ahead: response to Ann Sinnott Tuesday, then this On the GRA on weds. What I’m hoping for is something that’s going to make it easier and clearer (and wider) to argue when single sex spaces and services are justified, as it’s that which has been undermined (eg sports centres and pubs with mixed sex changing rooms and toilets; health services right up to the CQC not even asking patients sex but instead gender, because biology is apparently irrelevant to healthcare). That stuff doesn’t necessarily become clearer with clarity over the GRA (which was more about who “counts” as a woman in order to access those reserved spaces/facilities etc). My understanding is that it’s that which Ann Sinnott’s case will shine a light on, but I’m going to hold my breath a bit until we’ve seen the responses to her because I’m a bit worried we’ll have Truss giving with one hand but the response to Ann S indicating they are prepared to take with the other. Hopefully that’s just me being overly pessimistic. Of course it would also involve a degree of coordinated thinking this government generally hasn’t managed.

This is excellent news. I am particularly interested to see what will be done to strengthen the EA.

Agree that unless Labour supports this they won't get my vote again. I'm not a Tory but they've read the grassroots feeling absolutely right and Labour will stand against this at its peril.

Stonewall:

Now, if today's report is true and the Government doesn't move forward with real GRA reform it will be a bitter blow for trans people.

But what hasn't changed is trans people's legal right to access single-sex spaces in line with the gender they identify with

And there's the rub. Rolling back "Stonewall law" is going to be hard. They are in pretty much every influential organisation there is. Ann Sinnotts case is going to be so so important.

legal right to access single-sex spaces in line with the gender they identify with

This isn't a thing at all, is it?

This sounds like good news. I think it is fair to make it cheaper but keep/ strenghten the safeguarding is an ok compromise. I doubt it is much of a contributer to gov coffers in any case.
A fair price to cover the admin costs sounds reasonable to me.

This isn't a thing at all, is it?

No. It isn't. But Stonewall et al have been pushing this for years and it is now embedded as "law" in pretty much every UK institution.

This is a positive step and I'm interested to hear what's actually said in the announcement. I'm pleased that the government has at least taken notice of women's opposition to self ID.

As everyone else has pointed out it's only the beginning and it's the 'Stonewall law' that has done the most damage. The upcoming court cases are incredibly important.

Labour should support this. I will be watching what they do and say.
It is actually a win for women (50% of the population!) AND those with genuine gender dysphoria as it helps to protect them too against the ever widening umbrella.

Stonewall have implied that it is discriminatory to exclude men from women's spaces. Not all men, obviously, only those who tell women that they are women.

This is not the case. The comparator, without a GRC, is those other men.

The idea that it is discriminatory to have a single sex facility has been defanged by this announcement.

Many people assumed that any man demanding entry to female only facilities, already had a legitimate and legal right.

It's not the case. Even with a GRC. But discussion of legal changes of sex, versus self ID, is what is needed for the public to understand.

Plus they specifically mention prisons.

At the moment, men are self id-ing into female prisons.

Would the prison service still allow this, once the fear of being thought discriminatory is removed? Why would they? I'm sure it's a complete pain in the arse.

TRAs deciding they don't give a fuck what the government wants of the public wants, they're going to do it anyway, is not going to carry the same weight as it has before.

@DeliciouslyFemale

That’s brilliant in theory, but let’s be honest, far too many organisations are accepting male bodied (in particular) people self identifying trans into areas that are supposed to be for females only. This is great, but we still have a long way to go, before women and girls regain their rights to their feelings of dignity, privacy and safety, to be respected. This is the first step and hopefully can be as evidence that these organisations are completely wrong.

This is exactly it. Too many institutions including schools and organisations (looking at you M&S, John Lewis, Centre Parcs et al) have adopted self-id as a policy and nothing short of dropping these policies will be acceptable. I'm sceptical about the sex based rights of females when the GRA creates the legal fiction that someone must be treated as the opposite 'sex' in all instances. And without evidence of someone obtaining a GRC we are still where we are.

@sashagabadon

This sounds like good news. I think it is fair to make it cheaper but keep/ strenghten the safeguarding is an ok compromise. I doubt it is much of a contributer to gov coffers in any case. A fair price to cover the admin costs sounds reasonable to me.

I would have thought that the admin costs were more than £140!! It hardly seems like an onerous cost - it costs more for a family to get into Legoland.

Although pleased at least that this isn’t going to be law as such, in practice it is the case that a lot of businesses and orgs are already using self ID and this is still what we need to fight against, each and every time we see it and yes, in the future labour will try and implement it. I really don’t think they’re going to change on that existing policy any time soon so if we want to support labour we have to change their position on this. I don’t want the Torys in next time but I won’t vote for any party that supports either self ID or the right for males regardless of a GRC using female facilities.

Yes, as Datun clearly said, men have NEVER had the right to ‘identify’ into women’s spaces, services and sport.

It will be the discussion that opens the eyes of the public, a discussion that up until this point has been almost impossible to have.

This announcement will bring much needed sunlight and that is exactly what Stonewall and their ilk have been desperate to avoid.

But what hasn't changed is trans people's legal right to access single-sex spaces in line with the gender they identify with

I'm amazed Stonewall are saying this. It's not true. There is no legal right.

They truly think that fully intact, heterosexual men have a legal right to enter the changing rooms of teenage girls when they are disrobing?

No they don't.

(I know anatomical status and sexual orientation is irrelevant, but it's to highlight my point.)

As for the price, doesn’t bother me they’re lowering it but if we compare to things women have to pay for, it’s not much. It is less than the bbc licence fee.

@DaisiesandButtercups

I also think that it should be considered completely fine to ask to see evidence of GRC when relevant, just as it is fine to ask for evidence of age, sex, pregnancy, disability etc when relevant.

Otherwise you still effectively have self ID.

Exactly

I would have thought that the admin costs were more than £140!!
It hardly seems like an onerous cost - it costs more for a family to get into Legoland.

Plus it's means tested. And I believe you can also get it reduced to about £31, and claim it back anyway.

And of of the estimated 500,000 trans people in this country, less than 5000 people have applied for one.

I am concerned there might be something in the announcement about conversion therapy. Even though there has been some excellent papers released about treating underlying health issues rather than just affirming treatments. The conversion therapy bills introduced in Australia recently have been concerning.

I feel there needs to be a separation between the LGB conversion therapy bills and the T with the T allowing for recognised medical treatments that might delay transition yet treatment mental health etc first as one example.

Edward Lord is on the case, tweeting the Liberal Democrat's document on transphobia.

twitter.com/edwardlord/status/1307396683580534787?s=21

www.libdemvoice.org/liberal-democrats-adopt-definition-of-transphobia-65868.html

@Datun

Trans people will continue to legally access name changes, public toilets, changing rooms etc, on the basis of self-determination.

Men can't acquire the protected characteristic of the female sex willy nilly, now.

Public attitude to the customs and protocols was always the basis for much of this.

This is just the beginning.

Challenges to the EHCR, stonewall law, the Tavistock, and the systematic reversal of regulatory capture has started.

And with this announcement, the government have indicated that not only are they listening to the public, they know how the system is being gamed.

But they can unofficially - they can acquire passports and driving licences with their preferred 'gender' marked as sex on these official documents without a GRC - this needs to stop. No ability to 'change your sex' without a GRC. None whatsoever. And a good look at the GRA (preferably a repeal) that makes it very clear that it is a gender preference that is recognised not that you can change sex.

@bellinisurge

My fear is, when this shit show of a government is finally undone, self-ID will become a talisman of proof that their replacement is NOT THEM. Constant vigilance, as Moody would say.

I think Labour are so fully invested in TWAW with so many senior figures signing pledges and expelling people that they are going to struggle with such a massive U turn. Am I right in thinking that there was no real concept of being able to legally change your sex before David Lammy introduced the GRA during his time in government? It does underline how easy it is to create unintended consequences with a law - the original stated purpose of the GRA has been completely changed (or was this the plan all along?) and Pandora’s box is open. They haven’t really left themselves a graceful way of exiting their position on these issues.

I remain grateful to the conservatives (apart from Maria Miller) for their general approach and while it is never going to be perfect imo it is so much better than anything else on offer.

@ArabellaScott

legal right to access single-sex spaces in line with the gender they identify with

This isn't a thing at all, is it?

No it isn't, but employers and institutions have been behaving as though it is. What the actual fuck is gender anyway. I mean really what is it?