Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

I'm not kind. Caster Semenya is man. He may have worn dresses as a child and had a devastating shock when told he was a man (I imagine the medical examinations were pretty invasive too) but this was reported on over 10 years ago. There should not be a single report using she/her in relation to CS.

When they said the future is female, this is what they meant.

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

Chromosomes aren't the first point.

Testes produce lots of testosterone which benefits their owners in strength terms and permanently virilizes them and affects their brains.

Ovaries produce oestrogen which makes women less muscular and shorter. Permanently

If you have ovaries you are a women for sport.

If you have testes the presumption should be you are not.

I think you're right that this is the primary determining factor when it comes to sport. If you have testes, you produce testosterone, which is what gives the performance boost (strength, explosive speed, musculature, pelvis width, gait, VOmax etc.), and that's the factor which is relevant when it comes to deciding which sex class you compete in.

I think DSDs need to be treated on a case-by-case basis for this reason. For instance, I think there's a documented case where the SRY gene somehow got translocated onto the X chromosome, resulting in a person who was chromosomally XX but because of the presence of the SRY gene developed testes and typically male genitalia (and was able to father children). Similarly, someone with a malfunctioning SRY gene can be chromosomally XY yet develop normal female genitalia and a uterus (albeit with non-functioning ovaries). (NB, Semenya is neither of these - she has 5ARD, and internal testes).

But in assessing this case-by-case the question should always be "has this person got the advantages (or part of the advantages) conferred by male puberty or not?" Not "how were they socialised from birth?"

embryo.asu.edu/pages/sex-determining-region-y-mammals

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency

"I think DSDs need to be treated on a case-by-case basis for this reason. For instance, I think there's a documented case where the SRY gene somehow got translocated onto the X chromosome, resulting in a person who was chromosomally XX but because of the presence of the SRY gene developed testes and typically male genitalia (and was able to father children). Similarly, someone with a malfunctioning SRY gene can be chromosomally XY yet develop normal female genitalia and a uterus (albeit with non-functioning ovaries). (NB, Semenya is neither of these - she has 5ARD, and internal testes)."

To paraphrase Enstein: let's put this in language a six year old can understand.

Who is female? Who is male?

(In relation to sport in this case)

As Holy said.

Semenya knew he was male entering female competitions.

So did his coaches and team leaders.

To paraphrase Enstein: let's put this in language a six year old can understand.

Who is female? Who is male?

(In relation to sport in this case)

Sorry, I happily geek-out over this stuff, because it is seriously fascinating.

However, to repeat my last paragraph (which was the TL:DR bit): But in assessing this case-by-case the question should always be "has this person got the advantages (or part of the advantages) conferred by male puberty or not?" Not "how were they socialised from birth?"

“I am very disappointed by this ruling, but refuse to let World Athletics drug me or stop me from being who I am,” she said. “Excluding female athletes or endangering our health solely because of our natural abilities puts World Athletics on the wrong side of history. I will continue to fight for the human rights of female athletes, both on the track and off the track, until we can all run free the way we were born.”

But now Caster, now we have a decade of specific sporting research into DSD and sporting ability we can say "Sod off!" based entirely on the science! We can say with 100% certainty and leave no wriggle room at all for you, and lay the foundations for telling TRAs to categorically piss off too, YOU ARE NOT FEMALE and cannot enter womens races.

No more with the levels of teststerone shite! Stop with the human rights piffle, you embarrass yourself. An entire decade, in which you cmpeted and everyone knew, but couldn't categorically prove, your genetic advantage. Well, it's all over now, baby blue! Accept it.

We can have fairness in sport without othering people who are different. Yep, of course we can. That's why sports are single sex, unless sex advantage is neglibgable. That's why we have paralympics with all the categories giving as level a playing field as possible. Why we have the Special Olympics, offering sporting opportunities for all.

Unless you want to stop all of those and have one big sporting category "Human"... do you think that would work? Or was there, maybe, a point to the 'Othering' of some athletes? Like it wasn't othering it was simply identifying differences and crafting solutions that allowed all to participate?

Who is female? Who is male? (In relation to sport in this case)

That is exactly the way the IAAF were putting it. In their evidence for the case, they said that the rules were to determine someone's "sporting sex" - specifically which of the two sporting classes they belonged to according to their XY DSD and the impact on their physical capability. And they tried to make clear they were not making a judgment on their sex/gender for any other purpose.

Perfectly straightforward, but so many people with a vested interest in obscuring it.

An entire decade, in which you cmpeted and everyone knew, but couldn't categorically prove, your genetic advantage.

Absolutely. I think it was the Rio Olympics where DS (then aged 7) glanced at the TV for all of about 2 seconds - long shot of the leading pack in the 800m, not even a close up - and immediately said "Why is there a man in that women's race?"

do think it would be better if the athletics body changed the categories of male and female to testosterone below X amount and testosterone above X amount

That’s originally what they did and Semaya Castor filed an appeal because she didn’t want to take testosterone lowering medication. Her fighting that standard is what led to this outcome.

We can have fairness in sport without othering people who are different.

Do you consider it 'othering' to point out cheating?

[quote DeRigueurMortis]@Scout2016

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

You might want to get your DH to read this...[/quote]
Minor observation from the photo in that article: Semenya is on the left, they look like they are wearing school uniforms but CS is wearing what boys would wear, the girl in front is in a skirt. Are we being fed a lie that CS was raised as a female? I'm having my doubts.

Semenya never wore dresses according to dad: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html (interview from 2009)

If sports categories were separated by gender - and when I say gender I mean gender identity as we know where we are when we're being specific - we could have the Gender Olympics with a category for Netrois, one for Maverique, another for Demi-girl.

That could be interesting.

I did have a lot of sympathy for Semenya until I saw a television interview. After seeing that, I would not presume how Semenya prefers to term themselves off the race track, pronouns included without asking them. They certainly presented in the interview as physically and socially male, with opinions expressed towards female people were not flattering or feminist, and it changed my view of them quite considerably. Semenya is not female and is well aware they are not female; their interest in defending the rights of female athletes seems mostly about protecting their own choice of racing in women's categories for the success they can have within that category.

I'll just mention too: female athletes have been told they should race males and that they 'don't try hard enough' hence the poor results when competing in mixed sex categories.... However I haven't yet seen any suggestion that Semenya should move to the male categories and continue their track successes there. I wonder why this is?

I think we all felt sorry for Caster after that win where the tests came back as suspect and the world's eyes were watching.

But time passes, and Caster has had a good 10 years and the truth does out eventually. I think all the years of cover up have only made it harder for those with a DSD where testosterone does not confer advantage. It would probably be better if DSDs were properly explained and athletes could have access to proper testing and counselling before entering the big time in elite sport.

This has just been a long and confusing exercise in pushing boundaries, and as there is a lot riding on it in the background with money to be made, these decisions always get pushed and edged to where the power lies.

Sorry if this has already been established - I've only skimmed the thread - but does anyone know if Semenya's DSD has given them the same advantages regarding physical strength that males typically get, or will it have disadvantaged CS in some ways?

Not, of course, that I think CS should be competing with females, but I am curious to know whether they could feasibly compete with other males.

(ignoring the fact that they might simply be too average when placed in the correct category, I mean)

OhHolyJesus

Thanks for posting that link earlier. For anyone who has any doubts, all three athletes in that picture are intersex. Stonewall/BBC/Guardian etc will not tell you that, they will keep referring to them as "she". The Stonewall twitter feed has been an absolute car crash today. They are like a cult.

@Collidascope

Sorry if this has already been established - I've only skimmed the thread - but does anyone know if Semenya's DSD has given them the same advantages regarding physical strength that males typically get, or will it have disadvantaged CS in some ways?

Not, of course, that I think CS should be competing with females, but I am curious to know whether they could feasibly compete with other males.

According to the medical expert at the IAAF case, at puberty their "testes produce the same 15-fold increase in testosterone as males without DSDs produce...and have serum testosterone in the normal male range, with the same virilising effect as males without DSDs. "

PearPickingPorky

Thank you. So likely the same advantages.

I made the mistake of going on Twitter which I've been largely avoiding for months now, and found, amidst a lot of shit about Michael Phelps having a weird body (yes, a weird MALE body), some idiot claiming that CS should be allowed to race with women because they're only the fastest by a couple of seconds, and are a long way off the men's times. Which would be a great argument to let any mediocre men compete in the women's category

@Collidascope

Sorry if this has already been established - I've only skimmed the thread - but does anyone know if Semenya's DSD has given them the same advantages regarding physical strength that males typically get, or will it have disadvantaged CS in some ways?

Not, of course, that I think CS should be competing with females, but I am curious to know whether they could feasibly compete with other males.

CS race times by male standards are not "elite".

This is a significant reason for CS fighting this case so hard. They would not be Olympic material and enjoy the sponsorships and other revenue generated by sports people at that level.

There is no evidence that CS (from a physical sporting point perspective) has been compromised by their condition wrt it adversely impacting their performance against other men.

Simply that CS is outclassed by other men at an elite level. However in perspective CS is a fast and accomplished runner and would beat most men - just not top flight.

Re: the stonewall thread.....

How the hell do they square the argument that it's a travesty to expect CS to take medication to surprise their testosterone to compete whilst simultaneously supporting the likes of Lauren Hubbard in being able to compete because cross sex hormones have negated their XY testosterone advantage....

Duh - suppress not surprise...

CS is a biological male who has knowingly competed in women’s events since their diagnosis in 2009. It’s just cheating & it was done with the backing of the SA athletics body.
What is shocking is why it was allowed to go on for so long. Too many female athletes have been deprived of their rightful place on the podium, wearing medals, because of this.

Thanks, DeRigueurMortis