Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

I am curious to know whether they could feasibly compete with other males.

I'm also curious - I suspect that 5-ARD is no particular disadvantage versus other males, but I don't know.

Semenya certainly could compete - they just wouldn't be competing at international, or even national level. Semenya's 800m best of 1:54 is some way off international qualification level for men - 1:44. Assuming Semenya hasn't just been running fast enough to beat females, and doesn't have more in the tank.

You can see Semenya in the 800m table at boysvswomen.com - The boys in positions 1 to 8 cover 1:49 to 1:52. Semenya and the other two DSD medal winners are the top women at positions 9 to 11 in that table, covering 1:55-1:57. The true females are in positions 12 to 16 from 1:57 to 2:00.

It's hard to say if Semenya might be capable of more. Maybe Semenya's has just been running hard enough to stay ahead of all women and 2 other less-good DSD males...

Given the controversy around them, I can imagine there being team orders, even among the 3 of them, to not look too out of place - like those boys competing in Connecticut. Who knows?

Try again on that link: boysvswomen.com. It assumed https, which didn't work.

Minor observation from the photo in that article: Semenya is on the left, they look like they are wearing school uniforms but CS is wearing what boys would wear, the girl in front is in a skirt. Are we being fed a lie that CS was raised as a female? I'm having my doubts.

I've honestly no idea how CS's parents raised them in that sense, however based on interviews with CS it's clear they have never embraced female stereotypes even before their official diagnosis.

Now, that in itself isn't at all an issue.

Women who are gender non conforming are still women.

What is interesting when watching CS in interviews is the level of male socialisation - not how they dress but how they speak (especially about women which is my main concern) and also body language and gestures (things like man spreading and typically masculine gesturing).

It's obvious that CS feels more comfortable with a male social presentation.

Again - gender non conforming women exhibit some of these behaviours but rarely all of them and so overtly.

That combined with the fact that CS has known they are XY since at least 2009 makes claims that CS is fighting to empower women somewhat dubious.

CS is a person who knows they are male yet wants to compete as a woman whilst behaving as a "stereotypical" man and claiming they empower women....

Bottom line is that birth certificate with female on was very valuable to a lot of people.

Money talks.

Grifters gotta grift.

The Olympics, and other top flight sporting events are now tainted and ALL medal awards for the last 60-70 years (?)* need investigating.

There's a Pulitzer prize in it for any writer worth their salt.

*There will be women still alive who may have been robbed of podium placements.

I, of course, agree that gender is usually a fair charactheristic to categorize athletes. But I am sure there are many other traits that do give unfair disadvantage.

Sports are segregated by sex not gender your desire to be nice confuses and conflates the issue with 'other advantages'. The biggest divide in advantages is sex. If you produce sperm you are male, if you have testes you are male, if you have a Y chromosome regardless of SRY function and regardless of genital development you are male. Males should not compete with females in sport due to the myriad of physical measurable advantages the male body has over the female body. Testosterone is a small small part of the advantage that males have over females in sport. Considering teenage boys easily outrun/outtime adult female professional athletes you'd think people would get this by now.

I have genuine compassion for people with DSDs but they are either male or female as demonstrable by testing. Facts aren't cruel or unkind they just are.

I have genuine compassion for people with DSDs but they are either male or female as demonstrable by testing. Facts aren't cruel or unkind they just are.

Exactly.

I'd also observe how "kind" people are to women who have lost out on medals and the resultant financial rewards that not only ensure the fiscal stability to compete at an elite level but employ the best trainers to ensure career longevity etc.

The expectation is always that women should support the achievements of men even to their own disadvantage.

What's changed in this particular debate is that we are now bigots for saying no.

The simple fact is that CS has known they are male since (at least) 2009 and like other athletes with the same condition exploited their circumstances to gain fame and money at the expense of women.

Why does anyone feel sorry for people in these circumstances?

Why is not empathy reserved for the women who lost out on podiums and sponsors as a result?

It’s a travesty that Semenya has been allowed to compete for so long.

I fancy that as a strapline, I am not a bigot for saying No to a man

Given the controversy around them, I can imagine there being team orders, even among the 3 of them, to not look too out of place - like those boys competing in Connecticut

I did not know that about the Connecticut lads. Another layer of deceit.

Barracker (?) was right. Pronouns are rohypnol. Nowhere has it been better illustrated than in the case of Caster Semenya. Her, her, her. She, she, she.

The media have been utterly spineless and complicit. Such a betrayal of the female athletes who have lost out over the years.

Meanwhile, for those who watch sport and apply Occam's razor, the truth has been perfectly obvious from the outset, courtesy of nothing more than a pair of eyes.

And I do believe the race card was played in this case to the highly detrimental effect of women. This is now a recurring theme fitting to the timescale BovaryX describes.

Why does anyone feel sorry for people in these circumstances?

I don't get it either, CS has known since (at least) 2009 that CS has XY chromosomes and internal testes. I don't feel sorry for CS in regards to sport career on any level - CS has been gaming the system and stealing places from women. CS appears to despise women so I don't see how CS thinks they are empowering women (it is just a PR ploy IMO) by cheating as a male in women's sport.

Why is not empathy reserved for the women who lost out on podiums and sponsors as a result?

Well I guess because we are THE support humans as decided by men that believe they require and are entitled to our kindness and mothering so they can be their best so of course we must play second fiddle to the benefit of the males.

Sport seems to be more and more... man sport and non-man sport. I mean let's just spell woman/women womxyn considering we are merely a feeling - undefinable except when a man is in the room - we need the menz to tell us what we are because we are merely a concept/feeling/idea. Schrodinger's cat, because we don't know what we are or that we actually exist until a man 'opens the box'.

I agree with the OP. A person who may be rare or even unique, but still the correct outcome in my opinion.

The media have been utterly spineless and complicit. Such a betrayal of the female athletes who have lost out over the years.

I'm wondering whether there has been an agreement made, perhaps as a result of the threat of legal action, amongst media outlets to refer to CS as she/her/woman/female. I'm speculating but it does seem odd that this has been going on for so long and is so widespread. I don't know of a single mainstream media outlet that has gone off course and reported the truth.

It says a lot about the state of our journalisms quite frankly.

I remember finding out about the Rio Trio I call them, and being absolutely astounded.

I'm pondering a letter to IPSO and OFCOM.

Anyone here done this already?

I remember finding out about the Rio Trio I call them, and being absolutely astounded

Rio Trio - I'm going to remember that!

You are correct - why was this not news at the time?

The media are utterly complicit in covering this up.

The thing is this is the one case where I am happy to call her a woman and use she/her.

I agree that physically she's male, but no-one would have known this until puberty. So she would have been socialised as female.

The person I know with a similar condition started taking oestrogen aged about 16/17. I wouldn't expect to suddenly refer to her as male even if that is what she is genetically.

Having said all that I do think that CS shouldn't be in the women's races, as her physical advantage is unfair.

@OhHolyJesus No, but if someone puts some ideas together I'll also write

I remember a couple of years ago an Arctic me in the Sunday Times about sporting bodies deliberately searching out children/teens with DSD’s for competition purposes.

*article

@testing987654321

The thing is this is the one case where I am happy to call her a woman and use she/her.

I agree that physically she's male, but no-one would have known this until puberty. So she would have been socialised as female.

The person I know with a similar condition started taking oestrogen aged about 16/17. I wouldn't expect to suddenly refer to her as male even if that is what she is genetically.

Having said all that I do think that CS shouldn't be in the women's races, as her physical advantage is unfair.

I'd agree with you except for the fact that when you see videos/interviews of CS they are very obviously and overtly presenting as a socialised male.

The whole bloody lot of them are cheats and sports reporters are in on it. Just read the comments from Rick Broadbent in the Times on this. I posted some comments, not deleted due to their policy but I think because my comment said that he should do his bloody research or go pick up his P45. I'd posted it under one of his comments and that comment along with a few other comments has gone.

Arse, Arse, Arse

Semanya peaked transed me. He lives as a man his preferred prononouns except on the field are male. He married his wife dressed as a man yet was allowed to steal women's prizes, funding, publicity and sponsorship for a decade after knowing his chromosomes. I'd be quite happy to use she BTW should he ask me to but all I read shows me that he prefers he. Except when stomping on women.

I'd agree with you except for the fact that when you see videos/interviews of CS they are very obviously and overtly presenting as a socialised male.

I didn't know that, it does change things.

A man, born with a mal-formed penis is not a woman.

I don't care if a mistake was made on their birth certificate. I don't actually care if they were socialised and live "as" a woman (whatever the hell that means).

Women's sports are for women.

By all means have a careful debate about women with DSDs that confer an unfair advantage over other women. But we need to stop all the bloody handwringing about "kindness" and "niceness", and pronouns and preferences.

This shite makes me so bloody angry.

mobile.twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1303715438988349447

Ross Tucker is usually a sensible voice.