Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

Finally I wish sporting bodies (yes IOC I'm looking at you) would stop this obsession with testosterone levels in and of itself.

Yes this.

I don't know why I'm so livid about this thread as none of it is a surprise given Stonewalls manipulation of facts and new strategy to include intersex in their campaigning.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1303628451102982144?s=19

I can almost imagine their glee at the opportunity to jump on the BLM bandwagon after the set back with rugby 🙄

@MichelleofzeResistance

I thought she was under the impression that she was biologically female since birth and only recently found out she had DSD? If so, I’m inclined to say let her compete as a woman, since that’s what she always believed she was

I get that this is well intentioned and meant kindly, and likewise that it is not nice to see someone sad that the answer has been no - particularly when it is someone perceived as disadvantaged or vulnerable.

But do you see here that you are see female sports and every female involved in them as so unimportant that you'd just hand them over as a consolation prize to an unhappy male?

The comment from the philosopher on yesterday's thread is very relevant here. Female anything is seen as terra nullis - a blank canvas especially to male people, that can be imprinted on or used or colonised for the benefit of male people who need more space, as if it's a space where no indigenous people already are.

Female sport (in fact all female space) is seen as so unimportant, and those females so invisible, that making use of those spaces to raise up unhappy, disadvantaged males seems like a good use of that bit of unwanted space.

Fundamental problem here. Really fundamental.

Very well put Michelle why is a man's disappointment so much more important than a woman's achievement?

I read the title and I thought, "I'll say."

Very well putMichellewhy is a man's disappointment so much more important than a woman's achievement?

Answer: It's not.

Re the racism claims; is there a significant percentage difference of the occurrence of DSDs in white or black populations or do they occur fairly equally across all groups?

@DeRigueurMortis @Kit19 @PronounssheRa

Thank you for your help.

Good.

Off to read the background.

Shame it took so long.

Alsonota girl she isn’t a man. She is an intersex woman, she was brought up as a girl she discovered that she was intersex as an adult. She may have XY chromosomes but that doesn’t make her a manI think it is unkind and unfair.

I understand why they came to the decision they did but I do feel sad for her and the way this has been debated is cruel and would be hurtful to anyone.

Why are all these posters saying they feel bad for her?

That's beyond me. Why have sympathy. Semenya knew exactly what was being done!

[quote Doyoumind]I don't know why I'm so livid about this thread as none of it is a surprise given Stonewalls manipulation of facts and new strategy to include intersex in their campaigning.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1303628451102982144?s=19[/quote]
I see someone else has taken them to task for it, but do they really think participation in sport is not already regulated?? Idiots.

@MondayYogurt

Re the racism claims; is there a significant percentage difference of the occurrence of DSDs in white or black populations or do they occur fairly equally across all groups?

And do people think or is there evidence of white people with the same DSD being treated differently?

Posted before I finished my post. Was also going to say there seems to be a touch of the Robin DiAngelo in people like this: they assume other people have the same racist thoughts as they do.

Unkind. Unfair.

We all know what's actually unkind and unfair.

Do take a look at the Caster Semenya video posted up thread.

As for the crap that passes for 'journalism' these days. How can anyone hold their head up and call themselves a so-called professional when they show such a lack of research and factual knowledge.

Chromosomes aren't the first point.

Testes produce lots of testosterone which benefits their owners in strength terms and permanently virilizes them and affects their brains.

Ovaries produce oestrogen which makes women less muscular and shorter. Permanently

If you have ovaries you are a women for sport.

If you have testes the presumption should be you are not.

@Siablue

*Alsonota girl* she isn’t a man. She is an intersex woman, she was brought up as a girl she discovered that she was intersex as an adult. She may have XY chromosomes but that doesn’t make her a manI think it is unkind and unfair.

I understand why they came to the decision they did but I do feel sad for her and the way this has been debated is cruel and would be hurtful to anyone.

Caster is biologically male.

The fact they were not diagnosed as intersex growing up is irrelevant.

If you want to compete in elite sports the classification of participation is based on sex.

Your actual sex not the sex you assign to yourself.

The reason for this classification is simple.

The combined advantages of male puberty and testosterone "top trump" any other physical advantages in sporting prowess.

It's why the argument that one woman was lucky to have an advantage over another because she was born taller is no different to a trans woman being lucky to be born as they were doesn't hold water.

With a few very rare exceptions (horse riding and ultra endurance) a mans overall physical attributes with win over a women every time because it's not just because on average they are stronger, or taller, or have bigger lungs or narrow hips etc etc it's because they have ALL of these things simultaneously.

One female elite athlete might have some attributes "better" than other women which puts them at the top of their game - but they don't have everything better by a very significant margin.

That's why even someone as accomplished as Serena Williams can and has been beaten by other female players but wouldn't win against any of the top 100 men.

It's also why Caster was undefeated in over 30 elite races.

@Oblomov20

Why are all these posters saying they feel bad for her?

That's beyond me. Why have sympathy. Semenya knew exactly what was being done!

Because we're socialised to be kind, be nice, give ground, be caring, empathise.

@Siablue

*Alsonota girl* she isn’t a man. She is an intersex woman, she was brought up as a girl she discovered that she was intersex as an adult. She may have XY chromosomes but that doesn’t make her a manI think it is unkind and unfair.

I understand why they came to the decision they did but I do feel sad for her and the way this has been debated is cruel and would be hurtful to anyone.

She was brought up as a girl... but so are many boys. That doesn't make someone actually female.

If someone has a male DSD, has testes, responds to androgens and went through a male puberty, they are male.

I actually do think the decision is fair. What I object to is you referring to her as a man which is not how she describes herself. She was brought up as a girl and has lived experience as a girl (even if she enjoyed playing with boys).

Some people with 46 XY DSD are raised add girls and some are raised as boys. If she had better access to health care as a baby she may have been raised as a boy but there is a lot of variability in people with her diagnosis (some have wombs, some do not).

We can have fairness in sport without othering people who are different.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/08/caster-semenya-loses-appeal-against-world-athletics-testosterone-rules?CMP=share_btn_tw

Good article by Sean Ingle in the Guardian. Unsurprisingly, since it's the Guardian, he is unable to say the one word which is needed, but does, thank goodness (and well done him) manage to avoid saying an outright lie.

If she had better access to health care as a baby she may have been raised as a boy but there is a lot of variability in people with her diagnosis (some have wombs, some do not).

This is incorrect. Males with this condition do not ever have a uterus.

there is a lot of variability in people with her diagnosis (some have wombs, some do not).

No.

5-ard II deficiency causes under virilized genitalia (because of DHT deficiency in utero) which may appear female at birth

Since there are still testes, AMH is produced in utero and no uterus exists.

There is still variability due to different mutations or absence of the gene, but these affect degrees of undervirilization, spermatogenesis etc.

We can have fairness in sport without othering people who are different.

That the crux of the issue, because that statement is untrue.

The very reason this issue is so important is precisely because of the need to protect women's sports by preventing men from competing.

If you can't identify (aka "other") someone with XY chromosomes and determine their eligibility to compete in their actual biological sex category then you can't have fairness.

Being "fair" isn't being kind/unkind to to a specific individual.

It's about rules that apply equally to everyone.

Which brings us back to the fact that males such as Caster Samenya knowingly enter female only competitions - as males.

No honour.