Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

Cowardice too.

And as PP quite rightly pointed out.

CS is not the only male masquerading as female in womens elite sports.

Very true, and it's worth having that discussion.

I've been thinking today about why most people on social media are outraged by this ruling. I think it's based on these false beliefs:

• a man without a penis is a female
• if you're raised as a female and you say you're female, then you are female
• your senses which tell you whether someone is male or female should never be relied upon; you cannot possibly have any idea who is female or male, you can only know if someone is female or male by asking someone what they are.
• If you're intersex or have any sex disorder then you're neither male or female, or you're a bit of both, or in between sexes.

The lack of education around these issues is startling and alarming.

Thank you, Penguindreams!

No all intersex people with XY chromosomes produce testosterone and there are also some who do but due to a lack of another hormone (chemical?) are not able to "use" it and thus will not experience male puberty.

Everyone produces testosterone.

Women produce levels typically around 1/30 of men.

And some XY disorders may result in testosterone in the normal female range.

Testosterone is a hormone that targets androgen receptors, which is encoded by the AR gene, which is found on the X chromosome, hence as a recessive disorder this is limited to XY (since Y is a remnant of the X chromosome and lacks most of the genetic information)

Since the AR gene is long and complex, different XY people will experience different mutant, or even deleted AR genes resulting in different degrees of sensitivity to androgens. A mutant gene may still work partially.

I think also MrsJamin lots of people genuinely don't know about the Y chromosome. Much less that the condition Caster has means you have testes about your person.

Shoots

Thanks for the clarification.

DeRigueurMortis is absolutely right. It's disgraceful that this ruling (right as it is) actually doesn't address the male/female division at all; it merely says that if a male (intersex) person wants to compete in female sports they need to suppress their testosterone levels.

They are male. Their testosterone levels are irrelevant. Female sports should not have to include them; they should not be required to reduce testosterone levels as that should make no difference to their male-ness.

We are back to the Green party divisions of "men" and "non-men". Women's sports were set up for and should be restricted to women, not non-men (however they may be defined).

@safariboot

I still find it bonkers that if an athlete takes a performance-enhancing drug, oh no that's a terrible thing and sports needs to spend a zillion dollars and be very intrusive on athlete's lives to stamp this out. But an athlete can be required to take a performance-reducing drug as a condition of competing in certain events! Surely all the arguments about safety and wellbeing of athletes apply equally.

Safety and well-being are lies. is the answer. No one in elite sport cares about these things, though I imagine they fool themselves that they do. But the very nature of many elite sports means that they are dangerous, and even those who do not have a catastrophic injury often suffer serious physical effects from their training. IN some sports quite young atheletes regulary have serious back and knee injuries which in any other context people would be freaking out about. But a 13 year old gymnast can be in weekly physio appointments to deal with back injuries that will never heal and that is just part of elite sports.

They may talk about safety, but in many of the high profile sports, especially amateur ones, those who balk at potentially damaging training regimes drop out before they get to the top.

@AlbusSirius

DeRigueurMortis is absolutely right. It's disgraceful that this ruling (right as it is) actually doesn't address the male/female division at all; it merely says that if a male (intersex) person wants to compete in female sports they need to suppress their testosterone levels.

They are male. Their testosterone levels are irrelevant. Female sports should not have to include them; they should not be required to reduce testosterone levels as that should make no difference to their male-ness.

We are back to the Green party divisions of "men" and "non-men". Women's sports were set up for and should be restricted to women, not non-men (however they may be defined).

Yes, basically this leads to ambiguity (no pun intended). A male can compete against women, provided they are competing in other distances or reduce their testosterone. It won’t be long before this causes problems. Terri Miller and Andraya Yearwood for instance. The testosterone ruling doesn’t factor in every other benefit that a Y chromosome and testosterone have previously brought that athlete. It was a cop out, and will only lead to more problems in the future.

Would it be feasible to do a sex test on every athlete entered into female sports?

It does seem like the underlying message is if your T levels aren't "male" enough for competitive sports, you can play on the women's team.

There was mention earlier of quite a significant number of intersex athletes in women's sports. Is it enough to create a 3rd category?

The ones who defend CS as a female, saying they were AFAB and raised female, have they seen the videos? Obviously many biological women can be GNC but the maleness is unbelievably striking.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvg50P4FwTk

I think by the time they are entered for elite sports, anyone with any ambiguity probably has had some sort of tests nowadays.

But it still leaves the problem of what you define as female. There are even extremely rare cases of XY females and XX males, when some very specific sex-determining genes have been translocated to the wrong chromosomes, or duplicated, etc. So chromosome testing isn't enough; yet need to get into the specifics of what genes, what organs have developed, what hormones have been produced and when, what the response to those hormones has been. It wouldn't just be a 'simple' test - XX and you're in.

Yeah I don't think it's so much the testing as the boundaries that would be the issue.

Obviously many biological women can be GNC but the maleness is unbelievably striking.

How very racist of you. That's just how black women look, dontcha know?

I bet a lot of transmen could see that clip and only dream of passing that well as male. Even the most masculinised by T and passable transmen still have a female structure behind the surface cosmetics. You might not notice it, but you can see it if you look for it. But Semenya's structurally totally different - hence the whole issue. This is way beyond "current testosterone levels".

@NotBadConsidering

Caster should not be allowed to compete in the women’s 800m category regardless of suppressing current testosterone levels because of all the other advantages that male biology has brought Caster and continues to provide. Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency, a condition that only affects males. Semenya has all of the advantages of male puberty, plus an increase in VO2max, a male pelvis to improve running gait, and Semenya has never had to deal with a period, either in training or in competition. Semenya has known this for years, yet has continued to compete in the women’s competitions, winning medals, prize money, sponsorship that might have otherwise gone to someone else. I don’t feel sorry for Semenya, I feel sorry for those women who have missed out.

This

Jesus actual fucking christ. An article first appearing on RNZ now appears on Stuff NZ about this. Written by Hamish Bidwell it is just completely wrong about everything, nothing about the fact Caster is XY nothing about anything really other than she is definitely female and this is wrong. Ffs

i.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/300104659/far-from-being-banned-caster-semenya-ought-to-be-celebrated

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

Wrt 5a RD, the AR gene is located on the one of the autosomal chromosomes isn't it, not on the sex chromosomes X or Y. It is autosomal recessive. So, women can also inherit one or even theoretically two copies of this mutated gene, but don't suffer any consequences as the development of female sex characteristics is not dependent on it. Males are, so a deficiency of dihydrotestosterone prevents the full masculinisation of male genitals in utero.

I suppose it is obvious when the testes (despite being internal) has kicked up production of testosterone for male puberty. As is perfectly healthy in males. Even when there has been a difficulty with the formation of the sex characteristics in utero. Of course, women don't have testes for this huge kick of testosterone production. Only much smaller production by the ovaries (and by both sexes in adrenal glands).

Interestingly, even this much lower level that occur in a healthy woman's body is quickly converted to oestrogen.

Most females don’t develop male characteristics because testosterone and other androgens act differently in their bodies, being quickly converted to estrogen.

There is an issue only when there is some underlying problem, However, when female bodies produce an excess amount of testosterone or other androgens, their bodies can’t keep up with converting it to estrogen.

Again though, there is good news for those males who have this condition Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction . So with assisted reproduction, the male gametes, sperm, may be extracted and they may have biological children.

Inheritance Pattern
Although people who are genetically female (with two X chromosomes in each cell) may inherit mutations in both copies of the SRD5A2 gene, their sexual development is not affected.The development of female sex characteristics does not require DHT, so a lack of steroid 5-alpha reductase 2 activity does not cause physical changes in these individuals.

jim.bmj.com/content/54/1/S259.3

www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/do-women-have-testosterone

ps. I make sure I look at more than Wiki now. Although I admit I also go for a quick gander.

Intersex as a term should not be used. It was replaced by dsd decades ago. It has only been brought back to mislead people.
I feel so sorry for people with dsd, who really don't want to be used as pawns in this game.
The vast majority of people with dsd are male or female.
Whatever their condition, they should not be exploited like this.
I am sad for CS that the circumstances of birth meant thst CS was not formally diagnosed until after puberty.
But CS has taken advantage of that to knowingly cheat. CS has gained money and prestige that should rightly belong to female athletes.

I don’t know if anyone else is doing this with the articles out there but I have made a complaint to Stuff NZ about the article linked above. My main point, as it’s an opinion piece, there are two factual errors which mislead the public on the issue. 1 Bidwell says she is being targeted simply because she has higher testosterone than other athletes. And 2 Bidwell says she has been put through tests and other humiliations in order to prove her sexuality. So I’ve said at the least, if they refuse to state the facts of their sex, the article repeatedly calls her female, never once letting the reader know of the actual biological sex which is the thing being tested, they must change the easily probable factual errors. No sporting body has ever asked Caster Semenya to prove their sexuality via testing. Ever. And they have not been denied a place in these events in the female category because Caster has ‘higher testosterone than other athletes’. It is because they have XY chromosomes, have testes and testosterone in the male range. I just can’t keep accepting the media outright lying like this, never mind withholding important parts of the story. It’s bullshit.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

has this article been posted on the thread yet? Saw it on Ovarit. People at Caster's school thought of Caster as male, even the headmaster, who was also Caster's running coach. He only found out Caster was "a girl" when Caster was 16.

At the time the article was written, Caster was 18 and was competing in the women's World Athletics Championship.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/54116114
FFS this is terrible reporting from the BBC. I have complained to the BBC that its factually inaccurate and that caster semenya's sex is known.

I wonder if complaints to IPSO would be worth doing? The way their Code of Practice seems to be widely interpreted appears to encourage this type of misreporting by the press (by this type, I mean not describing men as men).

You have to complain to the publication first and if not satisfied then yes IPSO.
Anyone had experience with the media council complaints in NZ?