Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

Ah, I wondered as wrote it

I just read a news piece on NBC news - this was just not mentioned at all. It was all a kit how this was pure racism. Written by a woman from something like the Women’s Media Group 🙄

@SerenityNowwwww

I just read a news piece on NBC news - this was just not mentioned at all. It was all a kit how this was pure racism. Written by a woman from something like the Women’s Media Group 🙄

If it was about racism, wouldn't there be equal outcry about the 100m results? It is a discipline typically dominated by black athletes. The people still referring to CS as female even after the ruling, what is going on?

PR!

@Kantastic

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

has this article been posted on the thread yet? Saw it on Ovarit. People at Caster's school thought of Caster as male, even the headmaster, who was also Caster's running coach. He only found out Caster was "a girl" when Caster was 16.

At the time the article was written, Caster was 18 and was competing in the women's World Athletics Championship.

I think that's quite a sad article.

I understand why people feel CS ought to have stopped competing in women's sports, but I think the pressure to continue must be incredible, coming from all kinds of sources.

So much empathy for CS out there (largely based on outright media lies). So little concern for the female runners deprived of wins/titles/records/sponsorship by CS' choice to knowingly compete as a virilized male with females.

Wrt 5a RD, the AR gene is located on the one of the autosomal chromosomes isn't it, not on the sex chromosomes X or Y. It is autosomal recessive. So, women can also inherit one or even theoretically two copies of this mutated gene, but don't suffer any consequences as the development of female sex characteristics is not dependent on it.

No, AR (androgen receptor) is on the X chromosome and is what makes us process T, so XX chromosomes unlikely to be androgen insensitive.

5-Alpha-reductase or 5AR is SRD5A1/2/3 gene, which is completely different in that it is about production of enzyme to reduce testosterone into DHT

Specifically 5-AR II, because we have three different versions, deficiency of type I doesn't seem to exist, deficiency of type III causes mental retardation because its main function is not T->DHT but polyprenol -> dolichol, and type II leads to poor development of male genitalia in utero

That I stuff NZ piece had a very interesting pop up when I clicked the link.

I know, the irony right? They’re so stupid.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves 5-Alpha-reductase or 5AR is SRD5A1/2/3 gene, which is completely different in that it is about production of enzyme to reduce testosterone into DHT

Ok, so the AR gene (which encodes the androgen receptor) is located on the long arm of the X chromosome. Both men and women possess this.

The SRD5A2 gene (which when mutated gives rise to a 46 XY dsd) is not located on X or Y sex chromosomes. It is located on an autosomal chromosome. When males have a mutated version of this gene it leads to a reduced or absent function of the steroid 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme which converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in the external genitalia. 5-alpha dihydrotestosterone can bind to the specific androgen receptors responsible for the androgen activity of the males. The sex characteristics of males who have this mutated gene don't develop properly in utero e,g. may visibly resemble female vagina but be blind and shallow, internal testes and micro penis.

Females do not need it for the development of their sex characteristics, so aren't affected by it.

www.orpha.net/consor/cgi-bin/OC_Exp.php?lng=en&Expert=753

Also, although there may have been problems with the formation of their male genitals in utero, imo anyone can see male puberty sure kicked and was effective for the winners of the 'women's 800M in Rio!

I have never seen CS stressed at the end of a race. Here is CS in 2018 at the Diamond League event in Paris, setting the 4th fastest time by a "woman". The athlete in 2nd place is Niyonsaba, look at the gap to 3rd.

"Rolling, buccaneering style..." says the commentator.

Well, that's a new euphemism, I suppose.

CS knew about the 46 XY dsd in 2018. I know what I'd call a person who says 'I am simply a woman and I just happen to run quickly' all the while knowing they know they are a biological male with a male physique and whose testes are producing testosterone above women's levels.

If you compare like with like, and CS was running against other males, they wouldn't be winning much would they? It is just that CS is running against women who are at a relative disadvantage.

This is a quote from the BBC article:

Many in athletics argue that hyperandrogenism offers Semenya an unfair advantage on the track.

Pape used to be among them.

"My views changed when I went to university and had access not only to different perspectives but also to the science behind the arguments that were used against Semenya," says the Australian.

I'm curious to know why Madeleine Pape changed her mind on this issue! I wonder what the science was that persuaded her.

But CS doesn't have hyperandrogegism. That level of testosterone would only be an issue if CS was a female XX. As a XY male, CS's testes are producing testosterone and you can see that CS's body has responded to it.

I think that's quite a sad article.

Not really getting the sadness, to be honest. It says Caster presented as male at school, fitted in fine as a male with lots of male friends, and then a couple of years after taking up running started to claim femaleness. Caster's done incredibly well out of it all.

I was a strident supporter of Caster Semenya when she first appeared on the scene. I thought everyone was being very unfair to this unfeminine teenage girl.

Now whenever I look at those races I can't help thinking of all the girls who have tried to compete. The difficulties they have had managing their periods, probably being on the pill, having to choose bras to minimise breast wobble; as they get older having to choose between having children or continuing to compete. All the issues that Caster, as a male, won't ever have to even think about.

So, first of all Pape is not a scientist. Pape is a "gender" issues Sociologist. Not running any more, either.

From BBC article
Pape's career would end with an injury in 2010. She then pursued an academic career, with a PhD in Sociology and studies on gender issues in sport

Also from that article.

If in 2009 the Australian thought her rival had an unfair advantage, her views could not be more different now.

"Semenya is an exceptional athlete. Anyone who has won all those medals has got to have something that sets her apart," she says.^

"I don't think that it is testosterone."

Then this

Is testosterone really so significant?

The link between testosterone and higher performance is controversial among sport scientists.

What a load of bolleaux. Is there a dispute about testosterone and the effect of male puberty because of it? On what planet?

Could those people explain why women aren't winning the mens events in that case? If people don't think testosterone leads to a higher performance, maybe these people (Pape included) should present their breakthrough so people who dope with testosterone won't face any penalties.

Wonder what advantage set Semenya apart so Semenya won leaving the women in the race behind. It is almost like the women were at a disadvantage for some reason. I'm racking my brains but can't put my finger on it.

Here is the 'article'. Seriously, have these people no cop on. It is pathetic.

Just thinking when they say 'sports scientists', they are talking about 'gender' issues sociologists. Not real scientists. Just like when they asks for a doctor and you put your hand up but have admit that you can't treat a patient because your PhD was in french romantic poetry.

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/54116114

@Kantastic

I think that's quite a sad article.

Not really getting the sadness, to be honest. It says Caster presented as male at school, fitted in fine as a male with lots of male friends, and then a couple of years after taking up running started to claim femaleness. Caster's done incredibly well out of it all.

It said a teacher that didn't have much to do with her thought she was male until he did actually coach her. And that she wore boys clothes and didn't like traditionally girly games and had a masculine appearance.

I said nothing about believing herself to be male growing up.

It said a teacher that didn't have much to do with her thought she was male until he did actually coach her. And that she wore boys clothes and didn't like traditionally girly games and had a masculine appearance.

That's wrong. Read it more closely. Caster started running at age 14. Year 11, when her coach found out Caster "was a girl" is age 16 -17, by which time presumably Caster had found out they couldn't cut it at a high level competing with men. Caster was competing in international women's competitions and winning them within 1-2 years of the big reveal.

Caster wore the boy's uniform to school - and presumably used male pronouns or Caster's coach would have known Caster "was a girl."

South African school years are different and poor rural African girls are likely to be delayed in their schooling.

Caster and wife have a baby girl, just a few picures of pregnant wife were released towards the end of her pregnancy.

www.livingandloving.co.za/baby-blog/see-how-caster-semenyes-baby-girl-steps-out-in-style