Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

Agree it's a ridiculous trope...
Hypothetically (because you'd never get an exact match) a black athlete and white athlete with the same body shape/training/dedication have exactly the same advantages.

Has this been debunked:

Studies have shown that black athletes with West African ancestry have significantly more "fast-twitch" muscle fibres, which tire easily but contract more quickly than the "slow-twitch" fibres commonly found in long-distance runners.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/the-science-of-sprinting-8005992.html%3famp

I don't think there is clear proof for any particular theory

However even where all the fastest male sprinters of all time are black, this is not true for women, and certainly not for the 800m, which is not a sprint .

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

> Black sprinters naturally have significant advantage, although they still have to work hard to exploit it, as all athletes, including Semenya do

Why does ignorance and casual racism go together with conflating being gifted with having testes?

Seconded

@DeRigueurMortis

Why does ignorance and casual racism go together with conflating being gifted with having testes?

Because both require the use of brain cells to first understand the issue and then to apply some critical thinking and empathy?

That put my head on a spin DeRiguer, did I misunderstand or did you?

/not being a jerk, genuinely wondering if I need coffee

There is a bit here

deadspin.com/chinese-runners-revealed-state-sponsored-doping-in-1995-1757222603

Essentially:

the Chinese cheated on drugs and set incredible times for the 1500m in/around 1993

the Ethiopians barely drug test and have now passed these times

deliberately recruiting biologically male athletes isn't even counted as cheating, and we're expected to believe that countries that systematically drugged athletes to win wouldn't take advantage?

cheating is a part of sport, it's an arms race, and ignoring biological sex when trying to get on top of this cheating, as if gender is some sort of sacred identity, is batshit insane

This is not very clear. Do you have a link on what you mean here?

The link is further back in the thread. It's an article in the Daily Mail from a decade ago that interview's Caster's coach and family. I don't know what is unclear but I suppose the context of the full article is missing. I'm happy to repeat it again, though. I think it bears repeating.

Caster took up running at age 14.

Caster's head master, who was also Caster's running coach, knew Caster as a boy. Caster wore male school uniform.

When Caster was 16/17, the coach found out Caster "was a girl." Very shortly after this, at age 18, Caster was competing in and winning international women's athletic competitions.

@Kantastic

It said a teacher that didn't have much to do with her thought she was male until he did actually coach her. And that she wore boys clothes and didn't like traditionally girly games and had a masculine appearance.

That's wrong. Read it more closely. Caster started running at age 14. Year 11, when her coach found out Caster "was a girl" is age 16 -17, by which time presumably Caster had found out they couldn't cut it at a high level competing with men. Caster was competing in international women's competitions and winning them within 1-2 years of the big reveal.

Caster wore the boy's uniform to school - and presumably used male pronouns or Caster's coach would have known Caster "was a girl."

I don't think that's what it intends, you are assuming the age and grade are what you'd expect in the UK. To me it reads that the coach assumed Caster was a boy until meeting her more personally to coach her, and so at the time of the interview, just thought she was a rather unusual girl. It's paired with the father's story which is saying much the same thing - Caster sounded like a boy, looked like a boy, and seemed to engage in traditionally boyish behaviours, but her father was quite sure she was a girl.

Of course they could be fibbing but the article doesn't contain anything to suggest that the writer suspected that.

also, I do know why the previous comment was unclear!

I had an interlocutor who didn't like me pointing out that Caster was known as a boy at school. They were doing that "say random nonsense to create confusion" thing that happens so often in gender discussions. So my comment had little hedging clauses included in it to address the nonsense they spouted.

I don't think that's what it intends, you are assuming the age and grade are what you'd expect in the UK.

No I'm bloody not, I looked it up.Stop contradicting me when you clearly haven't. I can't understand how someone could have the cheek to repeatedly contradict another person based on assumptions they've pulled out of, politely, thin air.

I've now said this on FOUR comments I've made on this thread and I will damn well say it again. Year 11 in South Africa is age 16-17 That is the age when Caster's coach found out Caster "was a girl" and it is 2-3 years after Caster took up running.

If you need me to say it a fifth time I bloody will, this is really annoying me now.

From the Let’s Run article linked to upthread. This is Semenya in high school.

@ALLIS0N

From the Let’s Run article linked to upthread. This is Semenya in high school.

Hint: Caster is not the one wearing a skirt.

I know that . The caption says Semenya ( left) .

kantastic

That is how I read the timeline as well.

@ALLIS0N

I know that . The caption says Semenya ( left) .

Sorry, ALLIS0N, that wasn't clear on my part.

My comment was not meant to be directed at you but at people who might be reading but only skimmed the earlier part of the thread.

Apologies.

TRAs on Caster Semenya: she was AFAB, how dare you question her right to compete!

Also TRAs: Men who were AMAB say they're now a woman, how dare you question it!

So which is it? Birth assignment or feelings? And doesn't CS live as a man off-track anyway?

So much inconsistency.

I don't doubt that CS's family thought CS was a girl. Certainly initially. I don't know what medical examination or tests were available and it may even be that it was a home birth with just another woman acting as midwife. I don't know what medical care was available in that time and place. I'd be surprised if they would have been able to see the internal testes. They possibly wouldn't have been able to see or diagnose that this baby had a condition where a boy's male genitals just didn't develop properly in the womb rather than just thinking this baby was a female.

However, at puberty when CS's decidedly male testes kicked in and started producing male levels of testosterone to which CS's male body was and is obviously responsive, then it must have been obvious that CS was male. As CS's body was masculinised because of male puberty, it must have been apparent that CS was not female. The teacher must have seen a male pupil who must have looked, acted and dressed accordingly.

Possibly when the teacher was told that CS was officially a girl they were well surprised. It is interesting that CS was allowed to wear a boy's version of the uniform. It may be that all were of the like opinion that CS was a boy.

I must admit, I can understand that human nature side of not questioning something that can earn you lots of dosh. Certainly when it must be relative easy as you have an advantage over the class you run against. Man is seldom a noble beast. That is why the rules are important for fairness.

I don't doubt that CS's family thought CS was a girl. Certainly initially. I don't know what medical examination or tests were available and it may even be that it was a home birth with just another woman acting as midwife. I don't know what medical care was available in that time and place. I'd be surprised if they would have been able to see the internal testes. They possibly wouldn't have been able to see or diagnose that this baby had a condition where a boy's male genitals just didn't develop properly in the womb rather than just thinking this baby was a female.

Yeah, I would've thought the way internal testes would be checked for is on a scan when the mother is pregnant, that's when they check all the organs. And we can't assume a poor black woman in a rural village, pregnant during an era where the state barely gave a shit if she lived or died, would've had access to proper antenatal care.

Looking up DSDs it suggests that most internal testes aren't discovered till either a) the child has a hernia or b) puberty doesn't happen.

In a poor village where some children are very poorly nourished, girls are likely to have later puberty anyway. So there's a chance it wouldn't have been noticed until it became apparent that male puberty was taking over (i.e. likely a bit later than female puberty).

None of this alters the fact that Caster and Caster's manager, coach and family have known for at least 10 years that Caster has gone through male puberty and is biologically male. I don't think anyone is doubting the lack of early diagnosis, although IMO the male puberty must have given pause for thought.

Oh yes indeed, but, while I did originally think this may be something that would have been known at an early age in a White suburban child and not known till adulthood after competing in a rural Black child, it seems as if it would be likely obvious at puberty (and unlikely before) in most children.
So it's not a lifelong deception but as you say, it's also something that has been known for years.

I don't think we need to be too condemnatory.

Caster Semenya appeared to be female at birth.

This is a condition with varied presentation depending on the genes.

Some with the condition will spend their whole life as women.

In some countries the majority will lives as women.

In others the majority as men.

There is no wrongdoing per se.

Caster Semenya lacks DHT to some degree. DHT is a potent androgen, more potent than testosterone in its androgenizing effect. While it's not considered anabolic, it's perfectly reasonable for Caster Semenya to argue the toss on this point, given that Caster Semenya does not have normal male biology.

'Playing with boys and wearing trousers' doesn't make you a man.

Having testes doesn't either, in all cases. Someone with testes but a completely non-functioning androgen receptor is very feminine and is for reasonable purposes a woman in that they have breasts and haven't experienced the effects of testosterone in their brain and are likely to perceive themselves as female. It isn't a trump card to say 'they are biologically male'. We do have to deeper than that.

Many people with Caster Semenya's condition perceive themselves as female.

It isn't really on for us to say 'Caster Semenya is a man', because Caster Semenya does not have normal male biology and had none of
an important male hormone before birth, and a low amount now. This is something to be argued in court, it isn't really possible to prove that people with CS' condition are on the whole competitive with men. They might or might not be. It seems fairly obvious that they have an advantage over women, but clearly a DSD doesn't allow us to just say 'this is a man, it's so obvious'.

However, having this been argued in court, Caster Semenya lost, and reasonably so.

I don't think it would be reasonable for example in 2009 when it was learned that Caster Semenya had testes (if not before), for Caster Semenya to say 'ok I'm not going to run any more'.

Because there are cases such as Maria José Martínez-Patiño, who is XY (AIS) and seems quite solid in her female gender, were cleared to compete in the past.

So in 2009 it would not necessarily have been clear that Caster Semenya should not compete, because Caster Semenya was different from cases in the past who perhaps should have been allowed to compete (and indeed were).

It's not reasonable to say 'shit, I'm actually a bloke, not a lesbian? better pack it all in, and become a bricklayer'.

It's been litigated, Semenya lost and we now IMO have an answer for this condition (5-ARD), i.e. not in the female category.

And let's remember this ruling doesn't stop CS running, it just stops them running against women. They can compete against other males.

I don’t think they could stand up well in the male categories. Too old, too slow.

And let's remember this ruling doesn't stop CS running, it just stops them running against women. They can compete against other males.

No, CS can run against women. Just has to avoid 400,800,1500m & 1 mile. OR can race in those categories after reducing testosterone.