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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya has lost appeal

506 replies

Mumsnut · 08/09/2020 23:16

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

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Lordamighty · 10/09/2020 12:52

@Charley1984

Michael Phelps produces a very low amount of lactic acid compared to the average person, meaning he doesn’t fatigue as much giving him a natural advantage over his competitors. He is praised for his biochemical advantage, while Caster is penalised and humiliated because of hers. It’s misogyny and racism, men who dominate a sport are celebrated while woman who dominate a sport are humiliated and forced to change their bodies
Is the Michael Phelps example the new clownfish? It certainly isn’t racism, a white Russian athlete would not have been allowed to get away with what CS & the SA athletics authority have managed to get away with here. How they have managed to silence the press is mystifying.
DeRigueurMortis · 10/09/2020 13:01

@Mizzler

Reading this thread has really given me the rage. I've never really followed the Caster Semenya story apart from initially feeling sorry for her. But it's just cheating, plain and simple. To know you're an XY male, have gone through male puberty and to still compete against women? I think it's shameful.

What are the names of the women that CS has "beaten"? I feel like we should be talking about them and trying to raise their profiles rather than continuing to focus on this cheat.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/21/lynsey-sharp-caster-semenya-rio-2016-olympics

Here....

Lyndsey Sharp revived death threats after commenting on CS win.

Doyoumind · 10/09/2020 13:08

Welcome to MN Charley. It's frankly laughable, for so many reasons, that anybody would frame this as misogyny. Firstly, CS is male. Secondly, females miss out when CS runs, thirdly no one ever gives a shit about misogyny usually, least of all Stonewall who are likely to be the source of your misinformation.

Deltoids1 · 10/09/2020 13:11

DeRigueur the video embedded in that article really does tell a story. I’d never seen the three athletes together in motion. Bodies don’t lie, do they?

Kit19 · 10/09/2020 13:13

Michael phelps is definitely the new clownfish 😆

Here is Ross Tucker sports scientist explaining why the phelps comparison is bollocks

twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1123960874979549186?s=21

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 10/09/2020 13:28

@drspouse you've misinterpreted that.

ALL the conditions must apply

I.e. you must have testes and XY and male T levels and not be CAIS

So:

Transwomen can compete anywhere by reducing T
CAIS can compete anywhere and don't need to reduce T because they are immune to it
PAIS plus 5-ARD/17β-HSD deficiencies and hermaphrodites can compete in any sport except 400/800m/1500m/mile, and in those events by reducing T

So far it's clear that none of these athletes can compete without their male T levels, so they have moved to other distances where they can do as they like.

AlbusSirius · 10/09/2020 13:31

Trying to use Michael Phelps as an example of unfairness is just ridiculous. They might as well say that Usain Bolt has an unfair advantage because he is too fast Hmm

The divisions are "male" and "female" not "x level of testosterone" or "y levels of lactic acid" or "z height or weight".

All women want as that the category of women should include only women. Surely that's a decision women should be allowed to make?

DeRigueurMortis · 10/09/2020 13:40

Here's the relevant section from Ross Tucker on the "Phelps" analogy.

Whilst I agree with all the points I find section 4 the most powerful in that it not only explains the reason for sex segregation but the impact of not upholding it by referencing the scale of male physical advantage.

"Another problematic argument in this area of concept is the notion that having a high T value is a natural advantage, and should thus be ignored, because after all, we don’t regulate things like height in basketball or foot size and arm length in swimming. I’ve seen academics make this argument, and I don’t agree with it. I want to talk briefly about why this is problematic, and ultimately, possibly damaging to the sport, if these people were to win their case:
1 First, we don’t compete in categories of short people in basketball or people with small feet and short arms in swimming. This is important, because our decision NOT to “protect” the people with these “disadvantages” means that we don’t need to concern ourselves with things like feet size or arm length. It’s irrelevant. If we decided to police foot size in swimmers, maybe it would become relevant.
2 But, and here’s the thing, we HAVE decided to protect the competitive integrity of women’s sport. We do this because we understand that in two athletes who are equal in every respect except for biological sex, the effects of testosterone in the biological male create such a large disadvantage for the athlete without those effects (biological female), that they would vanish from sport altogether. Thus, having drawn a line, we must defend the line.
3 Perhaps one can make a reasonable argument that we SHOULD defend a line of height in basketball – short people, below 1.81m. But then, someone who is 1.815m tall can’t play down. That would be easy to do because height is easy to measure. Sex unfortunately is not, but the point remains, we decide somewhat arbitrarily to create categories.
4 I also reject this comparison because I guarantee you that having small feet or short arms is not as much of a disadvantage as having no benefit from testosterone. In other words, these “disadvantages” are not equal in size to that of being female in sport. If all things are equal except for Variable A, then the person with smaller feet is not going to be 4000th in the world rankings for humans. But when all things are normal except for Testosterone, that person would be.
5 Qualitatively and quantitively, then, testosterone differs from these commonly used arguments. I don’t know where I’d put things like muscle fiber type in this conversation – it may have the same effect size as “androgenization” due to high T, but I don’t know. Regardless, it’s moot because again, we don’t have an Olympic champion for “slow-twich muscles under 60%” and another for “fast-twitch muscles over 60%”. If we created that category for those slow-pokes, then we’d have to concern ourselves with this argument
6 Finally, this argument that says “Don’t regulate natural advantages” ends in a disaster for women’s sport. Why? Because being “male” is a natural genetic advantage! It may be the greatest of them all! If you have the Y chromosome, and the testes, and the testosterone, and you can use the testosterone, then you have a huge advantage compared to a woman who has all the same other attributes, but not those. So if you really want to get rid of regulation and separation based on “natural genetic advantages”, then you should just as well throw all humans into one race, and crown the “World’s fastest human”, and see how women get on."

DeRigueurMortis · 10/09/2020 13:45

Ross also makes an excellent point about the impact of testosterone:

" 1 So too, the point about testosterone is not that it guarantees better athletic performance, but rather that it creates the potential, in the right person (Athlete A), for a performance advantage that is so large that a person who is identical in every respect with the exception of testosterone (Athlete B) will be 10% to 12% slower than Athlete A.
2 In this regard, Testosterone is the ticket that gets you through the door, into the party. It doesn’t determine what happens once inside, because once in, you’re part of a select group (50% of the world, give or take, in this case), who have the POTENTIAL or the opportunity to achieve XYZ% advantages. But it’s totally false to say it doesn’t matter, when in fact it’s the thing that gets you started!"

safariboot · 10/09/2020 13:54

I still find it bonkers that if an athlete takes a performance-enhancing drug, oh no that's a terrible thing and sports needs to spend a zillion dollars and be very intrusive on athlete's lives to stamp this out. But an athlete can be required to take a performance-reducing drug as a condition of competing in certain events! Surely all the arguments about safety and wellbeing of athletes apply equally.

DianasLasso · 10/09/2020 13:58

@safariboot

I still find it bonkers that if an athlete takes a performance-enhancing drug, oh no that's a terrible thing and sports needs to spend a zillion dollars and be very intrusive on athlete's lives to stamp this out. But an athlete can be required to take a performance-reducing drug as a condition of competing in certain events! Surely all the arguments about safety and wellbeing of athletes apply equally.
But the arguments about fairness with respect towards their competitors only apply in one direction - that's the fundamental asymmetry.

Personally though, rather than pissing around with performance reducing drugs (in this instance, generally nothing more than oral contraceptives), I'd rather we simply said "sorry, you've gone through male puberty, you're not eligible to compete regardless of what drugs you take."

Lordamighty · 10/09/2020 15:22

@safariboot

I still find it bonkers that if an athlete takes a performance-enhancing drug, oh no that's a terrible thing and sports needs to spend a zillion dollars and be very intrusive on athlete's lives to stamp this out. But an athlete can be required to take a performance-reducing drug as a condition of competing in certain events! Surely all the arguments about safety and wellbeing of athletes apply equally.
Which part of CS being a biological male competing against women are you not understanding?
Lordamighty · 10/09/2020 15:28

The testosterone levels are a side issue as far as I am concerned. Plenty of men have low testosterone, it doesn’t make them women. Likewise some women do have higher levels, although nowhere near as high as biological males, it doesn’t magically turn them into men.

Winesalot · 10/09/2020 16:33

Perhaps anyone who continues to deny the benefits conferred to those who have had the benefits of puberty driven by testosterone needs to do some unbiased research.

This case is about just that. A person who has had the benefit of testosterone during puberty. Regardless of how they were raised or identify. And yes, it is very acceptable that C S has appealed. After all, it has been very public and very exposing. And it is their livelihood on the line. However, the decision has now been made and I look forward to seeing this to be rolled out to more sports and events.

But it has been based on science. Of course the sporting body knows all the facts. So, to deny this decision is to deny scientific reality.

merrymouse · 10/09/2020 16:43

But an athlete can be required to take a performance-reducing drug as a condition of competing in certain events

Athletes aren’t routinely asked to take performance reducing drugs - the request is specific to a rare situation.

However, sports people do routinely starve themselves before competition to fit into a specific weight category. Whether or not you think that should be encouraged, categories have existed for a long time.

They aren’t a judgement on somebody’s worth, they just enable competition.

DeRigueurMortis · 10/09/2020 17:24

This case is about just that. A person who has had the benefit of testosterone during puberty.

An important part of this case is this is NOT true.

Firstly, you need to understand that this ruling only applies to events where the IOC have mandated T levels - ie the women's 400/800/1500m.

CS is still (despite having experienced male puberty) able to compete in the 100/200m should they choose to (subject to qualification times) without reducing their T Levels.

They are also able to compete in the 400/800/1500m but only if they take medication to reduce their at levels (note: this is still at a level that is significantly higher than a woman would naturally produce).

The basis of the appeal had nothing to do with male puberty but CS's stated unwillingness to take medication to reduce T (something for which I don't blame them).

The above is also not specific to CS, so even if they choose not to compete in T restricted events, other XY athletes who have undergone male puberty still can subject to reduced T levels below the thread hold.

This case is actually very imperfect in the sense that the sole focus on T levels and mandating athletes to medicate to impact performance, not only misses the mark in understanding the impact of male puberty but the ethics of drug use to impact performance and even then refusing to recognise that if T were the only "benefit" in and of itself why is is only applied to some disciplines and not all?

So whilst we can say it was the "right" decision I'd argue strongly that premise and parameters of the case have done very little to protect women's sport.

DeRigueurMortis · 10/09/2020 17:27

Apologies for the typos - fat fingers today...but I sure you can work out what I mean

Oxyiz · 10/09/2020 17:47

In fairness I agree it's misogyny. But not in the way stated above.

Its all about hating women and putting them (literally) in their place below men.

drspouse · 10/09/2020 17:55

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves ah NOW I understand.
So FN was lying.

Winesalot · 10/09/2020 17:57

Typos aside, you are right. I should have been specific about the fact that it was indeed limited to a person with that group of DSDs competing in those categories. I

I was referring to the posters that were still stating that the person who the case focuses on only had biological advantages the same as Phelps, or a tall woman. Those analogies completely miss the point.

As I said, I am hoping this is the start to ending this craziness. Maybe just the first step because obviously the sporting bodies have to recognize the benefits of testosterone at puberty. That might take more studies, but hopefully those will not be cancelled anymore with the labeling of ‘phobia’. And awareness is now building each time these issues are discussed though.

safariboot · 10/09/2020 17:57

I'd rather we simply said "sorry, you've gone through male puberty, you're not eligible to compete regardless of what drugs you take."

I agree exactly.

Caster is intersex. I see nothing wrong with ruling that people with certain intersex conditions are ineligible to compete in women's sport.

DeRigueurMortis · 10/09/2020 18:13

Caster is intersex. I see nothing wrong with ruling that people with certain intersex conditions are ineligible to compete in women's sport.

Yes, in the same way an able bodied person is not allowed to enter the 100m for below the knee bilateral amputees in the paraolympics.

The "certain conditions" is also important and there absolutely is a variation of intersex conditions here that need to addressed individually.

No all intersex people with XY chromosomes produce testosterone and there are also some who do but due to a lack of another hormone (chemical?) are not able to "use" it and thus will not experience male puberty.

It's not clear in these cases what (if any) advantage having XY chromosomes might provide in a sporting capacity.

What is clear however, is that CS's specific conditions provides the dual benefits of having experienced male puberty and high levels of testosterone though the IOC only recognise the latter.

It's good that it's being talked about but we are a very long way from a robust and appropriately scientifically researched set of regulations that protect women's sport.

Celebrating that CS will not be able to compete in only 3 disciplines if they refuse to take an oral contraceptive is a somewhat hollow victory in the grand scheme of things - especially if the other members of the Rio Trio decide to medicate and trans competitors such as Lauren Hubbard are still eligible due to a focus on T levels and nothing else.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/09/2020 18:33

Celebrating that CS will not be able to compete in only 3 disciplines if they refuse to take an oral contraceptive is a somewhat hollow victory in the grand scheme of things - especially if the other members of the Rio Trio decide to medicate and trans competitors such as Lauren Hubbard are still eligible due to a focus on T levels and nothing else. Yup.. and everything else you posted.

That's why I am more encouraged by World Athletics use of language “biological male advantage”.

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer · 10/09/2020 18:51

The Phelps argument functions primarily as an identifier that the person making it has no idea what they're talking about. It is fuckwittedness writ large.

As for CS, I felt sorry for her in 2009. She was only a kid, barely 18, being wickedly politically exploited by people she ought to have been able to trust, and it must have been very hard and humiliating to have all that played out in front of the world. Nor do I think it is particularly realistic to expect someone who is dirt poor and has the possibility of improving theirs and their family's lives beyond recognition to refuse that chance.

However, at some point between then and now, my sympathy has utterly evaporated, and she can do one: she is now an almost 30 year old with lots of money and options, who has known full well for a decade that she's got a Y chromosome, and who simply doesn't need to keep competing with females to have a good life but feels entitled to do so anyway because she's too fucking mediocre to be able to win otherwise. Bollocks to that.

PurpleHoodie · 10/09/2020 20:00

The sports journalists (and other mainstream journalists) peddled the lie for years that CS was female.

They peddled the "you're all racist for saying CS looks like a man" line.

PR and Spin. £££££. And lies.

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