Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

The thing is this is the one case where I am happy to call her a woman and use she/her

I have no idea why you would say that. Caster Semenya identifies as male, wears male clothing, displays male characteristics & completely feels comfortable in a male role and only identifies as female when competing* on the track.

*The word competing is used sarcastically as there really was no competition when a biological male knowingly ran in a women’s event.

Semenya is a mediocre male athlete who stole medals, sponsorships & acclaim from female athletes over a long period of time.

CS’s wife is pregnant with their first child at the moment. I’ve done some reading and apparently people with 5Ard can father children by extraction of sperm. Be interesting how that plays out.

@Collidascope

Given the controversy around them, I can imagine there being team orders, even among the 3 of them, to not look too out of place - like those boys competing in Connecticut

I did not know that about the Connecticut lads. Another layer of deceit.

Sorry, misunderstanding on my use of "like". I meant that the boys in Connecticut looked out of place because they're streaking strides ahead of the girls. If you've seen any videos, it's ridiculous.

I'm suggesting (with no evidence) that it's possible that Semenya and the other 2 could have consciously tried to avoid looking like that - as if they're in a totally different race. No sign the Connecticut pair worry about that.

Some snippets from the Ross Tucker thread I found particularly interesting in the context of this thread:

The dividing line between males (for the purpose of sport, those who get this T benefit) and females (those who do not) is essential. Without it, women’s sport loses integrity and sport begins to reward things that do not matter (like would happen if weight classes in boxing were ignored for some people who argued “I’m naturally heavier, I should be allowed to fight down in weight”. So WA have a sound principle - at CAS, they argued this really well, actually. It was a strong physiological position. Their research & policy didn’t match its strength (9/)

The other objectionable thing about it is that it creates a situation where a healthy young athlete, with no desire for change and no medical need, is compelled to seek a doctor who’ll prescribe drugs with risk of harm in order to sport. The doctors were rightly concerned about medical ethics for this reason. It even became a point raised by medical organisations, advising doctors not to implement. So again, the issue (for me anyway) is not with the principle of it, but rather its implementation. There’s almost a sense in which the “fix” through drugs makes the policy ‘untenable’, but it’s ironic that this “fix” is offered as a way to be more inclusive (right or wrong, of course). In any event, WA have made a strong physiological case, and the courts have now agreed twice, on the basis of fairness, and now it remains (12/…)

All in all, a situation without solution, but for a principle of biological sex’s impact on performance, and the defence of women’s sport integrity, it’s right. For policy creation and integrity of science in governance, it’s a disaster.

There’s so much on the Ross Tucker thread!!!

But because there was a few comments on other ‘unfair advantages’

Sorry, one or two more to add. First, many are using analogies of Michael Phelps’ long arms or big feet, or Usain Bolt’s fast-twitch muscles, to argue that “natural advantages” such as these, and thus Semenya having high T, should be left alone & even celebrated. Let’s assess

First, sport exists to find exceptional individuals WITHIN categories. We actually want to celebrate things like muscle fibres & neurological advantages in sprinters. We accept that tall people make it in the NBA, that lungs & hearts matter. Sport rewards these attributes (20/)

And that’s precisely why a separate female category is necessary - 2 humans who possess all “the right stuff” to be sprinters or endurance cyclists or tennis players (or pick your sport) will differ by enormous margins if one is male (thus getting T benefits) and the other female We can see this in every event, where boys outperform the best adult females, even when they’re not as dedicated, well-resourced or talented. Inferior (relative to champions) males outperform historically successful females. They are identical in all respects that matter, and different in one that should not matter. Hence, a category. It “protects” (sometimes literally) females and allows them to be celebrated deservedly. We do not offer the same “protection” to people with small feet, short arms, slow-twitch muscles, or to short people. (23/)

So these analogies using Phelps’ arms and feet, or Bolt’s muscles are a) tenuous at best, and b) absolutely irrelevant, because until we have a category for short-armed, small-footed swimmers, there is no category crossing to be concerned about. One can, I suppose, lobby for a short person’s NBA" (Under 6-foot etc), but even in scale, these protections are not afforded because they’re small compared to what males have over females. The best small-footed swimmer (size 9 or lower?), for instance, is not beaten by thousands and thousands of “big foots" So they are unnecessary & unnecessarily complex. So please, lay off spurious analogies. Rather use weight classes in boxing and see if it works if “natural advantage” of weighing 109kg can be allowed into a category for under 70kg. Classes create meaning, so don’t wipe out lines

Ross Tucker

CS’s wife is pregnant with their first child at the moment

So will CS be the mum or the dad to that child?

The child has a mother, clearly, but if they are in a lesbian relationship )which doesn't seem to be the case) will CS be using female language or the mask slip further when the child learns to talk?

Googling pics of the couple there is something about their body language or something that is...IDK.

There is nothing about a sperm donor being used so...

With Semenya's condition sperm might or might not be produced in the testes, and there further can be obstruction in the various ducts. If there are no sperm germ cells there can be no sperm and a donor would be required.
I'm not sure that that is something they would discuss either way - clearly Caster cannot become pregnant as has no female reproductive structures, and Violet Raseboya has normal female reproductive structures

@OhHolyJesus

CS’s wife is pregnant with their first child at the moment

So will CS be the mum or the dad to that child?

The child has a mother, clearly, but if they are in a lesbian relationship )which doesn't seem to be the case) will CS be using female language or the mask slip further when the child learns to talk?

Googling pics of the couple there is something about their body language or something that is...IDK.

There is nothing about a sperm donor being used so...

CS wears male clothes. It is only on the race track that he identifies as a female.

"I think DSDs need to be treated on a case-by-case basis for this reason. For instance, I think there's a documented case where the SRY gene somehow got translocated onto the X chromosome, resulting in a person who was chromosomally XX but because of the presence of the SRY gene developed testes and typically male genitalia (and was able to father children). Similarly, someone with a malfunctioning SRY gene can be chromosomally XY yet develop normal female genitalia and a uterus (albeit with non-functioning ovaries). (NB, Semenya is neither of these - she has 5ARD, and internal testes).

But in assessing this case-by-case the question should always be "has this person got the advantages (or part of the advantages) conferred by male puberty or not?" Not "how were they socialised from birth?"

Yes, this
That's what I was trying to get at earlier - how can this be measured? Is there an objective way? Chromosomes isn't enough. Presence or absence of SRY gene (regardless of chromosomes) doesn't seem to be adequate, if there is also variability in androgen sensitivity - how to measure that? Does someone XX with a translocated SRY gene develop as an otherwise normal male? (And if so, does that make them female but with a 'natural' genetic advantage?) Does an XY male with complete androgen insensitivity develop in a way that is otherwise indistinguishable from females, or does the SRY still confer advantages? Is there some quantitative or qualitative scale for measuring this? I think that looking at it on a case by case basis is the only way, but still incredibly complicated.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one. It’s not incredibly complicated, political maybe but not that complicated.

He should have his medals taken off him. Just like they have done in other sports for cheating.

So Caster has fathered a child, and has made it plain in interviews that he identified with boys from childhood. Caster is biologically and socially male. The only wonder about this situation is that it's gone on so long.

The interesting bit was that they stated she has benefited from additional testosterone since puberty

@Lordamighty

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one. It’s not incredibly complicated, political maybe but not that complicated.

No, I think it is still incredibly complicated. Yes, in some cases, it is obvious, even with a DSD, that someone is male.

But what I was getting at was - how do you decide in the more grey areas? Does an XX person with a translocated SRY gene compete as male or female? Does a person with XY but CAIS and who in all other respects appears as a normally-developed female compete as male or female? You can't in isolation use T-levels, chromosomes, presence of SRY gene, specific organs, etc to tell - it needs to be if someone has gone through an at least partial male puberty, but given that that can be partial, how do you measure it? It certainly CAN be complicated, even if it is not in the case of most DSDs, and I don't think there is likely to be any single deciding factor that you could use in these cases to distinguish between the categories.

But what I was getting at was - how do you decide in the more grey areas? Does an XX person with a translocated SRY gene compete as male or female? Does a person with XY but CAIS and who in all other respects appears as a normally-developed female compete as male or female? You can't in isolation use T-levels, chromosomes, presence of SRY gene, specific organs, etc to tell - it needs to be if someone has gone through an at least partial male puberty, but given that that can be partial, how do you measure it? It certainly CAN be complicated, even if it is not in the case of most DSDs, and I don't think there is likely to be any single deciding factor that you could use in these cases to distinguish between the categories.

Yes, Duttee Chand would be the classic example - CAIS, phenotypically female (though lacking ovaries and uterus, I think - but no testes of any significant sort either), no advantage from male puberty.

Interestingly, following the history of Chand and Semenya shows why there isn't a "one size fits all" answer. After Semenya's early successes legislation was brought in to force athletes to lower their testosterone which Semenya did for a number of years (during which the medals dried up). Then Chand brought a case against the athletics authorities on the grounds that she was being forced to take medication with potential side effects when (because she had CAIS) there was no effect from the medication. The court of arbitration found in her favour, and that ruling covered Semenya as well, who promptly came off the androgen blockers and started winning by a country mile.

I suppose we could sacrifice the careers of athletes like Chand for the greater good - just exclude anyone who wasn't straightforwardly genotypically and phenotypically female. But it's not obvious that this is a defensible answer.

I'm another who argued furiously for CS when this story first broke back in 2009, but now have gone full circle. Having said that, I had no idea about parentage, but googling gave me this completely baffling headline:

runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/caster-semenya-olympic-champion-and-soon-to-be-mother/

I got distracted by the goats there albus

Yes, me too . I enjoyed that bit of the article, though I was a bit at the photograph of her seemingly having all her clothes adjusted by some man. It's a very odd photograph.

What 😳

I missed that...cos goats

Yes, Duttee Chand would be the classic example - CAIS, phenotypically female (though lacking ovaries and uterus, I think - but no testes of any significant sort either), no advantage from male puberty.

CAIS is not necessarily that common in female sport. Most athletes are as I understand it severely PAIS, rather than CAIS. But they have some response to testosterone. And are overrpresented compared to wider population.

1 in 1000 Olympic athletes have CAIS compared to 1 in 20,000 of general population.

I’ve never seen it confirmed Chand has CAIS?

Good discussion of this on Times Radio now.

Being open about Semenya having a DSD. Discussing the importance of a level playing field for women.

With regard to sperm production in those with the 5a- Reductase Deficiency, this is on Wiki. Since the gonad tissue develops into testes ....... may be able to create sperm. Male fertility can still be possible if viable sperm is present in the testes and is able to be extracted. In general, individuals with 5-ARD are capable of producing viable sperm.

Also, (from Wiki) some individuals may have a micropenis, (which may undergo enlargement during puberty) which may be capable of ejaculations as well as erections, but may be of insufficient size for penetrative sexual intercourse.

Blinkin' heck. There is a lot on the internet these days!

From that Daily Mail article posted a while back - repeatedly stopped from playing sports with girls as a teenager because of "rough" behaviour. So I'm adding "treated girls at school like shit" to the list.

I would also note that I don’t think Semenya should be allowed to compete in any women’s sport, be that the 200m as attempted, or a women’s football team as attempted

I agree with this. Also did not know it was something long known, I also assumed it was only discovered recvently, maybe my sympathy is misplaced.

Its a wonder none of these males don't seem to want to compete in womens marathons. Is it marathons where female people outrank men? Something to do with endurance, or so I read on here once anyway,, it only ever seems to be in stuff that male has an advantage..odd.