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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joe Biden's plans for LGBT+

133 replies

SunsetBeetch · 19/08/2020 10:32

Whilst there are lots of good thing in here (the reversing of the ban on trans people in the military, for example), there is also this:

"Guaranteeing transgender students have access to facilities based on their gender identity. On his first day in office, Biden will reinstate the Obama-Biden guidance revoked by the Trump-Pence Administration, which will restore transgender students’ access to sports, bathrooms, and locker rooms in accordance with their gender identity. He will direct his Department of Education to vigorously enforce and investigate violations of transgender students’ civil rights."

How he squares this with his pledges regarding women's rights, I do not know. I could scream!

joebiden.com/lgbtq-policy/

OP posts:
HelloToMyKitty · 22/08/2020 22:06

due to Trumps vile interference with the USPS
they need to vote early

You can’t be serious. The USPS is actually really incompetent and Trump really can’t do much to influence what states do either way (he complains but that’s not the same thing as influencing)

Here’s a good article on the recent problems with USPS and mail-in voting:

www.reason.com/2020/08/04/trumps-warnings-about-voting-by-mail-mix-reasonable-concerns-with-fanciful-conspiracy-theories/%3famp

Frankly I would have low expectations for using USPS for an absentee ballot (as I’d never send important documents via USPS, too risky) but from my understanding it’s the only way? It’s a bit of a pain to get it overseas anyway.

Admittedly haven’t looked too deeply as I don’t plan on voting in this election but am still toying with the idea.

ListeningQuietly · 22/08/2020 22:11

Admittedly haven’t looked too deeply as I don’t plan on voting in this election
I have
We shall agree to disagree

Delphinium20 · 22/08/2020 22:37

@ListeningQuietly

myKitty The anti abortion women are where they are

my big concern was that threads like this were being used to split GC women off from voting

but Roe v Wade is so much bigger than TWAW
as is maternity pay
as is health care
as is contraception access

every person who can vote should vote
and due to Trumps vile interference with the USPS
they need to vote early

Yes! This election is so much bigger than a single issue. We need to stop Trump and voting for Biden is the ONLY way to stop the erosion of all that is good for humanity.
Delphinium20 · 23/08/2020 00:32

@HelloToMyKitty

And I am not sure that a woman would be elected in the US - they are, like Ireland, very misogynistic and anti-women at heart

I kind of disagree. But I do think it would be far easier for a conservative woman to win. Kristi Noem (South Dakota governor) has been getting good buzz on the GOP side, her or Nikki Haley would have a good shot.

God...the last thing the US needs is a conservative handmaiden President. It would legitimize a Gilead govt.
Delphinium20 · 23/08/2020 00:41

@SunsetBeetch

*He also said:

"By the way, what you all know but most people don't know, unlike the African American community with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things. You go to Florida, you find a very different attitude about immigration in certain places than you do when you're in Arizona. So it's a very different, a very diverse community,"*

Holy shit.

African-American voters overwhelmingly support Biden and they are the primary reason he was elected. His comment isn't terribly inaccurate if you look closely at the cultural groups in the Americas. Majority of Black Americans had their languages, culture and history ripped away from them due to slavery. As a result, there's arguably a closer community bond in descendants of slaves. The "Latin" umbrella is much wider and includes many different historical groups and languages and different power structures (they were both oppressors and oppressed).
Goosefoot · 23/08/2020 01:33

@ListeningQuietly

I have to hope that the vast majority of registered female voters in the USA care far more about the lower tiers of the Maslow pyramid and will shrug at TWAW to get Trump out

Folks in California are rather more worried about climate change induced fires burning down their communities
and the Redwood forest where their parents' ashes are scattered
than what people identify as

Why would anyone think a Democrat candidate would do that kind of thing?

That's the fundamental problem. There is no reason to think a Democratic win will do a damn thing for anyone except the 1%. There are every bit as dedicated to that constituency as the Republicans have been.

There is a kind of gaslighting going on when you suggest to people that they can only affect this stuff if they get out and vote Democrat, or maybe it's a sort of delusion. They don't ignore it because they don't care, the problem is they don't think it will happen, and all the evidence supports that. It makes it worse when you tell them they are stupid, when they are completely acting in an evidence based way. Voting for a Clinton, an Obama, or a Biden will do nothing for them.

merrymouse · 23/08/2020 08:15

Voting for a Clinton, an Obama, or a Biden will do nothing for them.

There is a kind of gaslighting going on when you suggest to people that they can only affect this stuff if they get out and vote Democrat

Of course Democrat supporters believe this. Normal politics hasn’t disappeared and people still have beliefs about policy. That isn’t gaslighting, it is politics.

However, an American President from either party might at least be expected to care about California wildfires. Trump just sees a state that is irrelevant because it is blue.

America’s problem’s won’t be solved by getting rid of the conman with a personality disorder, but that doesn’t make removing the conman with a personality disorder less of a priority.

Iminthewrongstory · 23/08/2020 08:33

It sounds like a terrible idea but the Dem Convention did the delegate count from each state virtually and it was much more moving than showing it in the convention hall. In location seeing the wide variety of people who are Dems and the reasons why.

merrymouse · 23/08/2020 08:34

Sorry ‘irrelevant because blue’ implies some kind if strategic thought process.

This is a president of the United States of America who just tweeted that the FDA and ‘deep state’ are delaying testing a vaccine until after the elections because they hate him.

Iminthewrongstory · 23/08/2020 09:06

There's been a lot of understandable criticism of calling Trump supporters stupid, but how different is:
''There is a kind of gaslighting going on when you suggest to people that they can only affect this stuff if they get out and vote Democrat, or maybe it's a sort of delusion'
Kinda the same thing about Dems - they are just deluded. I can't find the link to it, but as you probably know 96% of black women voted Dem/Hillary in the last election and when someone tried to argue they weren't voting in their own best interests there was a pretty powerful reply.
Not so much in 2016, but in 2020 there was a wide range of Democratic candidates on the stage - I wish I had thought one was 'perfect' - I didn't - but there was a choice. And the Democrats voted for Biden. So instead of there being some monolithic gaslighting Dem, I think voters made a choice based on a combination of pragmatism, familiarity and affection.
Do you think the vote should be ignored and some unpopular third party figure installed instead? A third party has never acted as more than a spoiler (Ralph Nader) in a presidential election but those unhappy with the two party system could have tried to organise something viable - they didn't.

If you want to know more about the history/legacy of third party presidential candidates:
people.howstuffworks.com/10-third-party-presidential-candidates3.htm

Note: I have broken my own rule of not arguing about politics on the internet because it's a fool's game but ,though I live in the UK, I have strong connections to the U.S. and see the chaos and the collective nervous breakdown DT has caused to the nation.

Things like this, after the recent protests:
'They were among 12 people who were partially blinded by police during a week of national unrest. Of the eight who lost sight that day, six were protesters, one was a photojournalist, and another was a passerby.'

It's not a sort of debating game thing to them.

HelloToMyKitty · 23/08/2020 14:52

God...the last thing the US needs is a conservative handmaiden President. It would legitimize a Gilead govt

Don’t see how they would be any different to their GOP male counterparts?

I especially don’t see that coming from Nikki Haley but admittedly don’t know much about Gov. Noem besides her getting a boost from her coronavirus response.

ListeningQuietly · 23/08/2020 15:05

This is the FWR board.

Kristi Noem is against abortion in any circumstances.
She is against universal health care (including contraception and ante natal care)
Is she really the sort of person Feminists vote for ?

Nikki Haley is non white.
Cannot see the current GOP making her their leader.
She is also anti abortion and anti universal healthcare and free access to contraception.
Great for women's rights Hmm

HelloToMyKitty · 23/08/2020 15:31

Kristi Noem is against abortion in any circumstances. She is against universal health care (including contraception and ante natal care)Is she really the sort of person Feminists vote for

Oh of course no feminist would vote for her. I am saying that it would be easier for a conservative woman to win. Conservatives tend to vote for their candidate even if they are not perfect, it’s really like herding cats on the liberal side as you can see here. (I consider myself a feminist but am not in favor of universal health care and don’t accept it as a litmus test)

Nikki Haley is non white. Cannot see the current GOP making her their leader

This is a very British way of thinking. The party does not choose their leader, the voters do via the primary. I mean, Trump wouldn’t have even been a candidate if it was up to the GOP 😂.

She is also anti abortion and anti universal healthcare and free access to contraception

I thought she had a more centrist (in the US reckoning of it) stance? Again, I consider myself a feminist and don’t support universal health care and free contraception. This is a very European approach.

My overall point was to a PP was that I think a woman can be elected to the presidency, but it would be easier for a conservative woman. It would be no victory for the feminist agenda obviously.

My personal feeling is that a GOP female president would have be similar to their male counterparts and probably wouldn’t signal the next coming of Gilead or whatever. How could they really be any worse than Bush or Trump?

She is against universal health care

So am Is she really the sort of person Feminists vote for*

Oh, I wouldn’t expect any femi

Nikki Haley is non white.
Cannot see the current GOP making her their leader.
She is also anti abortion and anti universal healthcare and free access to contraception.
Great for women's rights hmm

HelloToMyKitty · 23/08/2020 15:33

Copy and paste error in the last part there, apologies!

Goosefoot · 23/08/2020 16:04

here's been a lot of understandable criticism of calling Trump supporters stupid, but how different is:
''There is a kind of gaslighting going on when you suggest to people that they can only affect this stuff if they get out and vote Democrat, or maybe it's a sort of delusion'
Kinda the same thing about Dems - they are just deluded.

I don't really think this is the same, mainly because I think plenty of people see the problem.

The question is why certain people don't seem to, particularly, the people in power within the Democratic party who keep them wedded to a neoliberal agenda. My thought is that they in fact understand, but don't care.

There are people on this thread though who don't seem to understand how it is that 40 years of neoliberalism contributed to the election of Trump. Just like there are people in the UK who seem completely unwilling to see how the LP's conversion to Thatcherism contributed to Brexit. Lots of people do, there are plenty of them here at FWR who have been LP members for years but see what has happened. But you don't see them telling people they just have to vote Labour.

It's kind of the doing the same thing over and over, while thinking their might be a different outcome, is the definition of insanity. How long should voters go on voting for the same thing, hoping for change?

It's not even a discussion about third parties, really. But at what point do you essentially have sham elections?

NotDavidTennant · 23/08/2020 17:06

There are people on this thread though who don't seem to understand how it is that 40 years of neoliberalism contributed to the election of Trump.

The "neoliberal consensus" only exists because people got fed up with the post-war consensus. Now that people are fed up with the neoliberal consensus a new political consensus will emerge.

In the meantime the main thing we have to do is ensure that the new consensus is not defined by the kind of people who want to burn everything down and start all over again. If that means voting for an establishment plodder like Joe Biden then so be it.

merrymouse · 23/08/2020 17:15

The "neoliberal consensus" only exists because people got fed up with the post-war consensus.

Agree NotDavidTennant - Thatcherism was very much a reaction to the Labour governments of the 1970s.

And I'd still take the postwar consensus, Thatcherism or Neo liberalism over kleptocracy, which is Trump's preferred form of government.

Iminthewrongstory · 23/08/2020 17:19

I'm afraid I don't understand, Goosefoot.

Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other candidates who I don't think you would call 'neoliberal' were put before the voters - and ultimately the public didn't go for them. However, their campaigns did succeed in moving the Dem platform to the left. Most of my friends supported Warren, a few Sanders, one or two Harris or other candidates. They are now all supporting Biden. And I gotta say my friends are neither 1 percenters or deluded idiots. One is a disability activist and this campaign is very important to her.

In the UK, ultimately, (though, of course, it's a different system and parties beyond the main two have more purpose and power) the voters didn't go for Jeremy Corbyn. (BTW, OF COURSE people are told just to vote Labour! That's what political parties do.)

If you don't think it's about third parties, and you don't think that voters are voting for the correct candidates - are you saying there shouldn't be elections?

ListeningQuietly · 23/08/2020 17:56

Kitty
Again, I consider myself a feminist and don’t support universal health care and free contraception.
Please explain how denying women control over their own fertility is feminist ?

HelloToMyKitty · 23/08/2020 17:58

Please explain how denying women control over their own fertility is feminist

Ummm, we can pay for it? I mean, people don’t give you free food, do they? Yet we wouldn’t say the grocery store is starving you.

ListeningQuietly · 23/08/2020 18:15

Ummm, we can pay for it?
How do low income families afford the cost of contraception to allow them to climb out of poverty
without universal health care
and subsidised contraception in the control of women

how do women take control of their lives without removing the risk of unwanted pregnancy

how do women ensure that their children will grow up healthy without access to good healthcare

feminists want women to have power over their own lives

Trump and his funders do not

merrymouse · 23/08/2020 18:16

I mean, people don’t give you free food, do they

Generally civilised countries don’t allow there citizens to starve Confused

Contraception in the U.K. is free at the point of contact, because the consequences of not providing contraception - at best an unnecessary operation, at worst an unwanted child - are so great and impact so disproportionately on women.

HOWEVER, the fact that this is not universally accepted in the US shows how profoundly different the two countries are, and why it is so difficult to compare political parties.

merrymouse · 23/08/2020 18:17

‘Their citizens’ !

Goosefoot · 23/08/2020 18:43

@Iminthewrongstory

I'm afraid I don't understand, Goosefoot.

Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other candidates who I don't think you would call 'neoliberal' were put before the voters - and ultimately the public didn't go for them. However, their campaigns did succeed in moving the Dem platform to the left. Most of my friends supported Warren, a few Sanders, one or two Harris or other candidates. They are now all supporting Biden. And I gotta say my friends are neither 1 percenters or deluded idiots. One is a disability activist and this campaign is very important to her.

In the UK, ultimately, (though, of course, it's a different system and parties beyond the main two have more purpose and power) the voters didn't go for Jeremy Corbyn. (BTW, OF COURSE people are told just to vote Labour! That's what political parties do.)

If you don't think it's about third parties, and you don't think that voters are voting for the correct candidates - are you saying there shouldn't be elections?

I expect party propaganda to say, vote for x anyway - not people in a discussion unless they are simply party people.

Sanders is a moderate social democrat, really - Warren I am not convinced is really any different than a Biden, in practice, but who knows. Yes, neither won, but do the Democratic (or Republican) party machines really return candidates that reflect what people would like to vote for? They doesn't seem that they are particularly affective at doing so. Any polling you see suggests that huge numbers of voters think all of the candidates are bad, that they don't really want to vote for any of them, that there is significant lack of trust. There is also huge manipulation of the system in terms of financing and propaganda, and people realise that.

What's interesting and suggestive is that they have for years been returning candidates who are largely indistinguishable in their economics while attempting to differentiate themselves in other areas which have little or no impact on social structure. This is true outside of the US as well, which is also interesting, and has created similar responses of grass roots voters turning to more extreme parties and candidates. The Americans however have little protection against the influence of money on their political system.

It's not a matter of voters voting "wrong" its a matter of them having no real choices, and every choice they have is likely to make things worse. Voters don't have a solution to that.

Unless somehow the political classes change their behaviour. It's not clear to me that institutionally the American system is robust enough to do that, it doesn't change easily and it was designed with a very particular kind of society in mind.

I wouldn't say I think they shouldn't have elected officials. But unless the political class comes up with some real options, I think that is the likely outcome within the next 100 years. Some kind of descent into political gridlock and social chaos followed by authoritarianism. Possibly some kind of real shock might make them wake up, but so far, the climate emergency, COVID, the 2008 crash, the Occupy movement, the current chaos around race and police brutality, and Trump, have not done it.

Goosefoot · 23/08/2020 18:47

@merrymouse

I mean, people don’t give you free food, do they

Generally civilised countries don’t allow there citizens to starve Confused

Contraception in the U.K. is free at the point of contact, because the consequences of not providing contraception - at best an unnecessary operation, at worst an unwanted child - are so great and impact so disproportionately on women.

HOWEVER, the fact that this is not universally accepted in the US shows how profoundly different the two countries are, and why it is so difficult to compare political parties.

There are lots of ways to potentially deliver things like contraception widely though. It isn't done mainly through public health even in a lot of places with socialised medicine. Canada has a pretty good socialised medical system but most people don't access contraception for free through it. A number of European countries have mixed systems too.

Someone can think access is important but that a system like the NHS isn't the best way to do it.