Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

[Bb2019]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking on this board and generally following the mainstream uk press about trans issues including the JK Rowling debate etc.

I've been shocked with the likes of Mermaids and the Tavistock centre prescribing under 18s life changing treatments.

I'm still trying to understand the implications and form an informed opinion on the use of women only places by trans women. I understand it would make many women uncomfortable if it were obvious.

Do we have any statistics or research done on how often women or girls have been attacked in their own spaces by men passing as trans women and or by trans women? I know it happens anecdotally but how much more likely is it to happen? Is it isolated incidents or is the risk much heightened? Perhaps it's not possible to do this type of research though due to a paucity of data?

Thanks!

Transwomen can legally be excluded from female only spaces because they are human males.
Transwomen do offend against women in female only spaces.
Transwomen pose the same risk to women as other male humans.

@ArabellaScott

do you not believe that women are entitled to single sex spaces anywhere then?

I'd really like to hear the answer to this.

The difference in risk between a transwoman and a woman, is, of course, the risk of pregnancy. This may seem trifling if you have never lived with the possibility of pregnancy, the consequences of pregnancy, birth, child-raising, etc.

Well the risk for both could sadlty be death. I'm not sure you can really get into quantifying risk like this, I hope we cam all agree that rape and sexual assaults are horrific crimes that no-one should be subjected to whether they can get pregnant or not.

do you not believe that women are entitled to single sex spaces anywhere then?

I think it's more that I don't think there can be a hard border. For almost all intents and purposes women's spaces are still single sex - I mean honestly how often do you even see a trans women in a woman's space, and even then can you be absolutely sure with 100% conviction that she is trans, or conversely that every woman who used that space was assigned female at birth. And I know we're not supposed to mention Intersex people but they do, you know, exist. Nature doesn't do hard lines, this is people we're talking about, a pure large gamete xx space is unachievable when the only system we have for classifying people is external appearance. I think the aim should be to make women's spaces as safe as possible, and I don't think trans inclusion makes women's spaces less safe.

Transwomen can legally be excluded from female only spaces because they are human males.
Transwomen do offend against women in female only spaces.
Transwomen pose the same risk to women as

Other human males

Sex chromosomes are the starting point of sex differentiation, not its end point. A female-bodied person with XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome) is female.

Are you talking safe in terms of sexual assault, or safe in terms of women's mental health also? Female spaces after all we're not brought in for safety reasons but to ensure female participation in society

By focusing on assault you are bypassing the real reasons for those spaces

Intersex females are welcome in female only spaces because they are female.

Nature doesn't do hard lines

When it comes to human reproduction it does. You need a small mobile gamete to meld with a large, immobile gamete.

There are no inbetween stages, no third gametes, no spectrum.

Sperm and ova.

Produced by - and only by - male and female humans respectively.

I guess the other thing with intersex is that at one level it is measurable

Which means that should push come to shove, the persons intersex nature can be proven

Unlike a persons transness, which could just be put on. And evidence from the prison population suggests that does happen

Nature does lots of hard lines.

Go look at a rock face for examples. The boundary between rock and air is very distinct.

Thinks I may be being too literal ...

@jj1968 Most women are not saying trans women are the risk; however sexual fetishists and men posing as trans women are an issue. Also, how can a woman challenge a male in a female space if the rule is any one who says they are is a woman.

I have asked many times about the women and children who would be excluded from sports changing rooms, swimming lessons, clubs and residential trips because of religious beliefs around sharing intimate spaces with the opposite sex. Never had an answer.

Do you have any thoughts on this or can you offer solutions?

My mother was liberal but not sure she’d have let me go on a trip as a thirteen or fourteen year old if I might have been sharing. a bedroom with male teens.

@BewaretheIckabog

I have asked many times about the women and children who would be excluded from sports changing rooms, swimming lessons, clubs and residential trips because of religious beliefs around sharing intimate spaces with the opposite sex. Never had an answer.

Trans inclusion is already happening and has been happening for decades. It's happening all over the world. I think if people from religious beliefs have felt excluded by that then it's for them to articulate it and not someone presuming it would be a insurmoutable problem for them.

"Most women are not saying transwomen are the risk" True self id is really the problem but also it should be noted that there is absolutely no evidence to prove that transwomen are less dangerous to women than other males.

@CharlieParley

Nature doesn't do hard lines

When it comes to human reproduction it does. You need a small mobile gamete to meld with a large, immobile gamete.

There are no inbetween stages, no third gametes, no spectrum.

Sperm and ova.

Produced by - and only by - male and female humans respectively.

Yes but there is no guaranteed way to establish what gametes someone possesses by external appearance.

Oh for goodness sake most transwomen don't pass and any way according to Stonewall a 6ft 5 bearded individual with fully intact male genitalia is a transwomen if this person says they are.

[quote jj1968]@BewaretheIckabog

I have asked many times about the women and children who would be excluded from sports changing rooms, swimming lessons, clubs and residential trips because of religious beliefs around sharing intimate spaces with the opposite sex. Never had an answer.

Trans inclusion is already happening and has been happening for decades. It's happening all over the world. I think if people from religious beliefs have felt excluded by that then it's for them to articulate it and not someone presuming it would be a insurmoutable problem for them.[/quote]
Not because of my race/religion, but because of the abuse I have faced it is a problem for me

Can you hear me ? Do you care? I am speaking up here

So your answer jj1968 to our question if women and girls are entitled to any single-sex provisions that exclude ALL males regardless of identity is NO.

Thank you. Was it really so hard to state your position?

I mean honestly how often do you even see a trans women in a woman's space, and even then can you be absolutely sure with 100% conviction that she is trans, or conversely that every woman who used that space was assigned female at birth.

Passing depends on being perceived as the opposite sex. Would you agree that perception is in the eye of the beholder?

And do you accept that as this is entirely subjective, that a male who identifies as trans may pass for some people but not for others?

For instance, observations in real life suggest that men do not read other males as male as often as women do, especially when the person in question wears feminine-coded apparel and sports a pair of boobs (whether implants or inserts).

And even amongst women there are differences in perception. Like many other women, I am hypervigilant. I read males as males when many others do not.

Encountering a male where a female victim of male violence believes herself to be in a female-only space can trigger involuntary trauma reactions. She reacts negatively to the presence of a male who identifies as trans not because that person is trans, but because that person is male.

Like women and girls from culturally conservative or religious backgrounds, for this reason such female victims of male violence are being excluded from previously female-only provisions turned mixed-sex by trans inclusive policies.

Do you agree that these women have the right to equal access and should be given an equal opportunity to participate in public life? And if you do, how do you suggest we provide for these women and girls?

And if it isn't legal to use the Equality Act exemptions to exclude ALL males from female-only provisions for the female sex class as a whole, how would these special provisions for these particular women and girls be justified in the law?

Midgebabe

Transwomen can legally be excluded from female only spaces because they are human males.
Transwomen do offend against women in female only spaces.
Transwomen pose the same risk to women as other human males.

The law allows female only spaces and women should not have to justify this by revealing their experience of male violence or oppression.

I hear you midgebabe. Loud and clear.

@midgebabe Yes I hear you, but what is the solution? Many trans women feel the same way and have been victims of male violence themselves.

And I mean what is the solution now? Even in the unlikely event third spaces could be won it would take years to campaign for and then implement them. What is a young trans women in a quiet bus station with dodgy men hanging about supposed to do if she needs the toilet? What is a trans woman who is experiencing domestic violence supposed to do? I don't think there is a perfect answer. I think most trans women would hate the thought they made someone feel scared or uncomfortable, but they probably hate the thought of being raped or beaten up more.

But many men have also been the victim or male violence

And unlike women, the stats suggest that transwomen are as likely to be the perpetrator of violence as the victim

Neutral spaces are the only answer, and would happen quicker if people could unite as opposed to being set against one another

A transwoman has a considerable advantage over women in dodgy situations because they are not as physically vulnerable as they have the same physical strength as men. Moreover, transwomen are not the only vulnerable males; young gay men, disabled men and men with learning disabilities are equally vulnerable but nobody expects that they should use female facilities instead.

Thank you for answering, jj. To be clear, you don't think women should be entitled to single sex spaces.

It's much easier to discuss these things when people are clear about their terms and beliefs. I actually have more respect for someone when they say quite clearly that they think sex segregation should be scrapped. This is the only logical outcome of trans-inclusive spaces, and the scrapping of the equality act would be a logical part of that proposition.

Personally I think women are.entitled to, and are in need of, single sex spaces for many varied reasons.

But so long as we can establish that you think sex segregation should be done away with, we can more easily discuss those reasons.

What is a young trans women in a quiet bus station with dodgy men hanging about supposed to do if she needs the toilet?

But if all toilets are made mixed-sex, where do the 30million+ women go to get away from dodgy men?