Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

[FlamedToACrisp]

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble risk comes with other jobs too. I never said nobody was affected at all mentally. I’m not deluded I could do that job myself for all you know (I don’t just to make that clear).

I am saying I can see how it’s appealing. Maybe you should join your friends

@SenselessUbiquity thank you for your well-considered comments about respect - you make some important points.

Why would you not respect sex workers?

Because despite the abuse,the judgement, the slurs,the shaming etc society has always been glad that 1.these women and girls exist and 2.that they can take advantage of them or benefit in various forms. I don’t think that’s true at all. I guess we could ask on Aibu but I’d be really really surprised if many people were glad prostitution existed.

A man can be married to a beautiful woman who is great in bed and still these men will eventually get bored of sleeping with the same woman over and over for years, plus men like having something that their wife doesn’t know, or at least this is what I picked up from men that pay for it...

That's because the men you encountered were disgusting punter pigs. Any person looking to pay another person for sexual gratification is a person I have zero desire to know much less be married to. FWIW I am married (25yrs in) - I am in my prime and his was almost 20yrs ago, your comment is insanely daft and sadly self-serving in justifying your decision.

What you (a self-proclaimed man-hater, I get why) fail to understand that in this prostitution environment you aren't going to meet any men of quality - it comes with the territory of them being okay or even excited that they are exploiting women (or a woman or a man for that matter), because on some level they get off on being complicit in exploiting people they see as subhuman or worse.

I personally am very familiar with the industry (in the US) - being in the financial/accounting sector I have had Dominatrix, porn performers (more fairly called 'abuse for pay' on film workers'), escorts (no sex, only public girlfriend outings), tier escorts (tiers were determined by sex w/o penetration, fetish 'support', etc.), cam girls (urinated on undergarments and then the company sold those as souvenirs of their cam experience) as clients over the past years. I stopped taking on these clients when I realized how everything was about staying under the radar - constantly I had to explain that tax evasion (whether ignoring tax authorities or misrepresenting your income/expenses on tax forms) is a felony crime punishable by incarceration and financially crippling fines. These clients didn't care that their misrepresentations could land me in jail or ruin my career - when I explained this to one of these clients for the probably tenth time she said "if that happens you can just come work with us!!!!". WTF... moral compasses completely smashed with zero concern for my well-being even though I gave them discounted rates (their files were complicated scraps of this and that) than my regular clients because I felt they were being exploited - the attempts at recruitment were my final straw.

I was almost trafficked once (when I was 21yrs old) and managed to escape.

I won't use the phrase 'sex workers' for the prostituted and those that benefit without putting their bodies and minds in danger as it isn't remotely accurate (being an umbrella term and prettifcation of one of the most putrid defiling situations women (and some men) are forced into (or choose for those with choices).

And we should respect all people, all animals, and probably most importantly our planet.

DISCLAIMER - All below 'yous' are general, not directed at any individual whatsoever

People deserve respect until they do something that damages it. If you defend prostituting of people you lose my respect, you prostitute people and you lose my respect, you recruit other people into prostitution you lose my respect. You traffic people you lose my respect. You choose to be prostituted I respect you but not the choice itself until you show that you are cognizant that your choice harms others then you also lose my respect.

In most cases people don't give a shit about maintaining or gaining respect though - they demand it regardless of their actions (which I find hilarious and sad at the same time).

This a million times over, I am so disheartened how the focus in this debate is so often on the morality of what the women are doing, and hardly ever on the men doing it

Possibly you can take it as a given that they are scum? The punters don't deserve any respect.

[quote ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble]@CaptainCorellisPangolin not all cam girls are the same. Plus you'll find "happy" prostitutes/escorts too. You have no idea how frustrating,dehumanising and even exploiting cam work can be too.[/quote]
I don't mean to generalise, sorry if I've caused any offence. I don't mean that all cam workers are relatively privileged "happy hooker" types, merely that a lot of the people I see online (plus a lot from school and university) who peddle the "sex work is work- I earn £1k+ a week doing it... It's so empowering!!!" Have never not been behind a camera and that most come from families rich enough to help them out, should they not want to do cam work any more. Not that that's an ideal situation, they just don't seem to get that there's a world of difference between their situation and somebody coerced into sex with strangers for a relative pittance, while at risk from rape and assault from clients.
I've no issue with cam workers, merely the ones who insist that because they're okay, all sex workers are fine. I'm sure there are prostitute/escorts with these attitudes as well, though I confess I've not really come across it.

You can hate the 'oldest profession' but not hate those in it, and view those in it as victims of a sort, forced often by economic circumstances or worse.

It’s the ‘Johns’ who I don’t respect.... utter pigs. How can they have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them and enjoy it? It’s rape.....

Well not really Dido.

There is a push from a variety of areas to change the way punters are viewed, which is working in tandem with the sex work is work / including people in much less danger in the stats etc.

There certainly has been a shift in societal view of paying for sex and especially stuff around less sharp end stuff.

When I was growing up any man paying for sex would not generally talk about it / see it as a normal thing to do on stags when single etc. Now on MN when women say eg their DH when younger went on a stag, got a 'private dance' and some of them paid for sex maybe him, there will be a host of women saying it's before you met, it's normal, I wouldn't mind etc etc

There is the place in Leeds where it's decriminslised (and dangerous for the women and girls who live in the area).

Men have always done this stuff but certainly there is a push to see it as a normal thing to do, like getting a massage for example (as mentioned on this thread).

So no it's not accepted that the men who pay for sex are scum, and it's becoming more normalised all the time.

And as it gets normalised, demand increases.

The focus needs to be on men. Not the women. It's always on the women and the men who drive this industry are invisibilised.

So no it's not accepted that the men who pay for sex are scum, and it's becoming more normalised all the time

I meant they are viewed as scum by (most) posters on FWR, hence there isn't much discussion of them on here.

Urgh, I find the relentless picking apart of InappropriateFemale 's initial preference for other terminology to describe her experience in the sex industry on this thread quite distressing and wish I had been along earlier to say so. In the context of what was a very candid and raw sharing, you come across as cold and pedantic, Dido. And did I mention relentless?
FWIW, Inappropriate, I value your sharing and wish you all the best. Thank you.

In society- as reflected in the media - and the whole gist of the OP - things usually seem to focus on the women.

Male sex workers (including prostitutes) are not really mentioned at all. That stuff with Keith Vaz was awful, talk of breaking a young man in. Labour party said, it's his personal life mustn't judge...

There have been TV progs about how fab it is as a woman to work in the sex industry, and progs about how important it is that men with disabilities can pay for sex.

And etc.

I think it's really important to move the conversation to the men who are driving this industry.

And for sure it's all being sanitised. The term 'sex work' itself was coined to water down the harms.

you come across as cold and pedantic,Dido. And did I mention relentless?

"Sex worker" is intended to prettify and normalise prostitution as just another job. It is also a handy umbrella term for pimps. I really don't care if refusing to pander to anyone who wants to normalise prostitution appears cold.

I don't know how I feel about it either OP, although I definitely don't feel as your parents generation apparently did. I know sex workers including a dominatrix who are extremely vocal about how empowering it is and how much cash they make so in that respect I often feel, "do what you like, good on you". But then you here these stories about woman who are trafficked, addicts who have terrible lives etc. and think shame on the people making this possible. But then at the same time isn't it better for them to be able to e at least earn a bit of money if they can't get work elsewhere for whatever reason? Argh, don't know!

Also even though we all do things we don't want to for money in respect of shitty minimum wage jobs something about it just feels so invasive and risky to me.

We are asked to embrace the rebranding of prostitution as 'sex work', and to agree with the implication that it is as acceptable to enter into and as much a valid choice as any other occupation, so that concerns about exploitation and damage to those participating in it will be silenced, and so that pornography will also be normalised and the profits of pornographers both organised and amateur will continue to increase exponentially.

Those poor married men being encouraged to be unfaithful - I’m sure without prostitutes they’d be at home washing the car and reading the bible.

I suppose basic human compassion, empathy, understanding that every persons background and upbringing varies vastly and a one size fits all judgement isn’t appropriate.
If a woman is exposed to sex early on in life, abused, treated badly they may make different choices to someone raised in a more stable way.
Alternatively - some women may choose this because they want to.

It is not the responsibility of women to be shamed for the choices that married men make. But your post seems to imply it’s the woman’s fault for being desired - as opposed to a grown man lacking respect and loyalty to his spouse.

@WarmthAndDepth

Urgh, I find the relentless picking apart of InappropriateFemale 's initial preference for other terminology to describe her experience in the sex industry on this thread quite distressing and wish I had been along earlier to say so. In the context of what was a very candid and raw sharing, you come across as cold and pedantic, Dido. And did I mention relentless? FWIW, Inappropriate, I value your sharing and wish you all the best. Thank you.

I found it distressing too.

@Inappropriatefemale It sounds like you are quite recently 'out' of the industry. I wish you the best. I know everyone is different, but if it's any comfort to you, for myself the more distance I got from it, it did heal. I don't have the hatred for men anymore and I do have a relationship. I'm left with the feeling of 'never say never' though, I wish I'd used my time wisely and used it to set myself up in a stable career. Like you, I frittered the money away. I got the violent thoughts towards clients towards the end too.

For myself the reason / cause that pushed me into it was problems with Universal Credit. Namely, it isn't enough to live on.

Imo it's important the causes for those whom it isn't a free choice need to be addressed first and foremost. Lack of a proper welfare state, lack of drug and mental health provisions, trafficking, domestic abuse, lack of childcare, barriers to education, lack of affordable housing.

Prostitute is often used as a derogatory term so sex worker is used as it’s more neutral and factual. I respect them as much as I respect anyone. They are human beings.

The vast majority of street women have suffered abuse (physical and/ or sexual) in their history (and ongoing) or have severe and enduring mental health problems or major drug/ alcohol addictions. Or some combination of these. They need help. Although not all want or are able to accept help.

People who do sex work off street (escorts, parlours, self employed) are mostly not drug users and do it because:

They can’t find other work
They are desperate for money
They don’t want to do other work (eg cleaning, office, etc),
The hours suit them
They can make a lot of money (and don’t pay tax)

Many see it as just ‘work’. Some are single mothers. Some are students. Some hate it and want to get out. There are some who have been trafficked.

I’ve also met office workers, teachers and police - who hate their jobs more than some sex workers hate theirs.

Sex workers demand great respect in an industry that has been around since the dawn of the human race and will long outlast other industries. Consenting Sex workers (who are largely but not all women) have been pioneers they are one of the few industries that women earn more than men. The per hour earning rate in a strip club means for only a few hours work wages can be topped off considerably. The athleticism for someone to use a pole is incredible you should really try it it shows an incredible level of fitness and core strength. They have pioneered working from home on the cam sites. And to be honest anyone who works to provide for themselves and their families in a legal industry deserves respect. Sorry I absolutely respect people males and females who work in that industry they do a job many can't or don't want to do. I see no issues with denying them employment just because it doesn't meet my moral compass. You can respect someone as a person and defend their rights to do an activity without wishing to participate in it one's self.

I wonder how long with the relentless rebranding of prostitution as sex work ie just a job like any other, it will be before women wanting to claim universal credit will be told they will need to take sex work jobs. After all if it’s just like stacking shelves or cleaning offices as people have said and is so lucrative into the bargain, why wouldn’t the state expect women to do it rather than claim benefits?

I’d bet my house on that not happening though - for all the way it’s dressed up & defended, the state doesn’t see it as just like any other job....

@Kit19 Universal Credit is the reason many of us are pushed into the industry, never mind women 'wanting to claim universal credit' , it's women already claiming universal credit doing this to survive.

There has even been an inquiry and subsequent report by the Parliamentary Select Committee on 'Universal Credit and Survival Sex' !!

How this is even occurring in the UK is a disgrace. Too many 'I'm alright jacks' ..

I’ve also met office workers, teachers and police - who hate their jobs more than some sex workers hate theirs.

How come you know so many "sex workers" to be able to make that comparison?