Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are we meant to respect sex workers?

372 replies

FlamedToACrisp · 12/08/2020 23:42

OK, I appreciate I came to the feminism party late. You lot are all on your fourth drinks and the buffet table is half-empty, but I'm still trying to edge my way into the conversation and make sense of it all. So please don't do the sneering 'educate yourself' thing - if you don't want to talk to me about this subject, I'll just go and sit in the kitchen and talk to the dog.

Anyway:

Over recent years (at my age, anything after 1990 feels recent), the term 'prostitute' has become 'sex worker.' And with it, the attitude to prostitutes has changed. I was brought up to regard them as either mercenary law-breakers or nympho sinner sluts encouraging married men to be unfaithful, but now I'm supposed to feel they're just women (or men) choosing this way to make their living and we shouldn't be judgemental.

I haven't looked into this issue; lucky me, it has not impinged much on my life, although obviously I'm aware there are sex trafficking considerations. Have I got it right or misunderstood? What's the cause of this change?

So, is prostitution now socially ok? And if so, why is 'prostitute' an unacceptable term?

OP posts:
feelingfragile · 13/08/2020 09:30

@DidoLamenting

My local council has been advertising for cleansing operatives and herbicide applicators (street sweepers and weed killer squirters). It's not a phenomenon particular to prostitution

The examples you give are not remotely comparable. "Weed killer squirters" isn't even a proper term. As for street sweeper it's out of date and Dickensian.

Prostitute is the accurate word to describe some one who sells sex.

So who is the arbiter who decides that street sweeper is old fashioned and needs updating but prostitute isn't?
ancientgran · 13/08/2020 09:36

What the police woman said was really interesting and it was this “sex workers help some marriages because if a man can relieve himself and be less stressed then domestic violence isn’t as prevalent in the lives of marriages where DV happens”, and she will know more than anyone here what she is taking about

I worked in local vice squad (civilian role) and never heard anyone say that. I saw a vast spectrum from a very organised woman who treated it in a very businesslike manner and made investments and intended to be in a position to get out while still young to young girls being brutalised into it, and actually young boys as well. I saw fathers of children my own children went to school with being arrested for kerb crawling, I saw men throwing up when they were told that the prostitute they had just used was actually trans. The thing that always upset me most was that when visiting time at the local maternity hospital ended the area was flooded with prostitutes as they said it was their busiest time. The thing I never saw or heard was that prostitution reduced DV and even if it reduced it for the partners of the punters it just moved it to the women who would get a beating if they didn't make enough that night.

In my role I got to know lots of the prostitutes, I would be processing them and they would often sit and chat with me while I was sorting the paperwork.

ancientgran · 13/08/2020 09:41

I missed the bit about respect, I was always respectful to the women I dealt with. Who am I to judge how someone else gets through life. They are human beings like the rest of us, I try to show respect to everyone I meet.

ThePankhurstConnection · 13/08/2020 09:45

I've seen very little respect for sex workers on this board OP. They're all seen as victims or "Handmaids" here.

I've seen very little respect for punters on this board. People who are working within the sex industry (commonly called sex workers these days so we can refer to their jobs as "work like any other") are generally seen to be people with limited choice in where they work accepting there will be some exceptions to that rule but acknowledging that these people who happily choose this industry without limited choices are fairly rare - because within the grand scheme of the industry, they are. Choices may be limited by lack of money, addictions, lack of other jobs for whatever reason and coercion (whether that be pimps, trafficking or being too far down a particular road and beholden to the job). At no point have the women, children and some men involved been nymphos or immoral marriage breakers and nor should they be seen as such - the punters on the other hand ... well it stands to reason if they are married THEY are the marriage breakers and yes, I blame the men.

People working in cam work, porn, clubs and prostitution deserve respect as does any human being the dont deserve to be stigmatised by virtue of the job they are doing or the treatment they commonly receive by those using them. They are not out to steal your husband (they quite possibly dont think much of them at all) they are out to make money. This doesn't make them terrible people unworthy of respect, it makes them people who need to make money for a variety of reasons BUT it is an industry which has large proportion of its workers only doing it due to limited choice or some manner of coercion (as I said not all and for some reason those who do it freely like to come onto forums/places where it is being discussed and proclaim it loudly) but however loudly they shout they are not the majority in this industry there is plenty of evidence out there regarding this.

This is an area I wrote about and interviewed people about many years ago for work so I possibly know more than many less than others. In my experience (such as it is and it, of course, isn't definitive AT ALL or first person experience or being involved in the industry) there are a lot of sad stories and broken people involved and those who arent exist but they are not common (at all).

The push by liberal feminism (and men but I often see liberal feminism as men"s feminism anyway) in the last few years to see "sex work as work" may have had the goal of recognising the people involved need protection and a reduction of the stigma of that work which is a laudable goal but has had several other less desirable effects. Some of these effects are; normalising of sex work as a job means you can promote it to young women as a viable career option like any other - it isn't, you wont be putting it on your CV, it is often dangerous the extent of which depends on the setting and while the money is good the longevity of the job is limited and it is emotionally and physically taxing in a way no other job is. Another effect is a ripple affect on all women, you may have noticed the creeping insidiousness of the sexualising of women - and that this is going younger and younger. Well, when you promote sex work as a normal job you have the unintended result of making women more objects for the use of men and this filters down to how women (and probably children) are treated - mostly by men because the overwhelming majority of users of anyone in this industry is men. The end result is teaching tweens and teens via Vogue etc of the joys of anal and the fabulous money you can get while selling your body in the many ways it can be sold, sexualised advertising, prizing appearance in females above any other quality and increased violence towards women as porn becomes more violent. You make women (and children and some men, mostly gay young men and trans people) commodities to be bought and sold by men for men. When you give it a thin veneer of respectability make no mistake the real people winning are the men using it whether the intent was meant for the people providing the service or not.

Most feminists on this board would prefer the Nordic Model with regard to prostitution and for women"s bodies to not be commodified at all. Women make up the majority of the so called "sex workers" but you can include trans people, young men and unfortunately children (although that is just child abuse plain and simple) in that and make no mistake they are being used and abused by men. Now, it is true some may choose that path despite a wealth of other opportunities handed to them on a glittering platter but given the debilitating nature of the industry (both mentally and physically) they are few and far between (ftr this was my personal experience too when interviewing women) but it suits (mostly) men to see it as work like any other despite the fact that is clearly untrue.

I suggest OP that you look at the Nordic Model Now site and any other discussions of this or indeed any of the many books available on the sex industry I suspect someone has already linked to the Nordic model while I am blathering on.

I found this an interesting thought - it isn't mine it was a tweet of someone I follow and I am paraphrasing - If the job is so good and so many people enter it willingly why is there such a demand for trafficked women and children? And if it is a job like any other where are all the trafficked accountants, civil engineers and retail workers? You never hear of police busting an underground accountancy ring where poor accounts are found in a basement in squalor forced to do the accounts of several men a day to "pay" for their passage into the country I wonder why that might be IF it is a job like any other?

Bottom line for me is that this industry informs the treatment of women and girls in wider society and we all feel the touch of it in our daily lives whether we chose to be part of it or not you only have to look at the recent "rough sex" defences and deaths to see this play out in daily lives or watch a 14-15 year old girl be leered at and called out by men outside pubs for merely walking down the street in her jeans and t-shirt.

So while I, and probably most women on this board, have respect for the human beings involved, by which I mean the people working rather than the punters (I have very little respect for them truth be told) we are not in favour of the industry itself. We do not support the way people are treated within in it and the people who use it and use its existence as a reason or prop to treat women badly or the attempt to market it as "work like any other" because we see through that for the calculated capitalist move that it is.

I can only speak for myself when I say I do support the women working within the industry and would always help them I would try not to judge those who chose it "freely" although I do wonder if they have chose it absolutely freely as some claim to have whether they give a toss about other women but I have reason to believe those women choosing it absolutely freely are a very, very small minority. I care about those (all the people; women, men, trans people) who have not chosen it freely but I think the current methods and approach will not help them in the long term (look into Germany's legalising of prostitution and see the benefits it has brought for the women - little spoiler it hasn't helped them at all but the men running them and using them have benefited greatly).

I could go on about this - this was a feminist issue for me long before the current "gender culture wars" but feminists are NOT the enemy of women working in this industry they do not see them merely as victims or handmaidens as the quoted post suggests, the truth is far more complex and nuanced than that take. But we do see the damage the industry does to people (even those not involved directly) and we care a lot about that and, it being feminism, we care particularly about the women and children affected.

TheABC · 13/08/2020 09:49

The problem is that in the past, society conflated the woman with the work, making it a convenient social sin that could be buried out of sight. The prostitute took all the stigma, leaving men free to return to the he or office, whiter than white.

It's exactly the same pattern as we see for single mothers who "just have babies for the benefits". Same stigma; let's focus on those predatory women, leading astray all those innocent men!

I loathe sex work for what it does to the workers. I do not support normalisation - the celebration of Belle de jour types is there to help us ignore the groomed 17-year shivering at the traffic lights, knowing it's sex or a beating from her boyfriend.

We need the boring, old-fashioned work on the ground; a decent safety net instead of Universal Credit, funded mental health services and more rehab help for drugs. If it's going to be a choice, let it truly be a choice.

ThePankhurstConnection · 13/08/2020 09:54

Well, I didn't mean to write a novella there Blush

ThePankhurstConnection · 13/08/2020 09:55

I loathe sex work for what it does to the workers. I do not support normalisation - the celebration of Belle de jour types is there to help us ignore the groomed 17-year shivering at the traffic lights, knowing it's sex or a beating from her boyfriend.

Absolutely.

Spidey66 · 13/08/2020 10:08

I feel sad for most of them. I'm a mental health nurse and have met a lot through work. A lot of them are hugely vulnerable because of mental health issues, substance addiction or controlling pimps. I doubt it's a career path most of them willingly chose. A lot had very damaged childhoods so grew up with little self worth and even less education.

bathsh3ba · 13/08/2020 10:09

My ex-husband paid for sex with escorts and to me it was worse than if he had had a full blown affair because of what it said about how he viewed sex and women.

I've said it before and got shouted at but I'll say it again, we have sex all wrong in modern society and I don't think having copious amounts of sex with different people, whether protected or not, is good for anyone, male or female.

NewNewt · 13/08/2020 10:13

I don' respect them. I feel sorry for them. The ones who aren't being trafficked, abused, or coerced, if there are any, I feel very negatively towards. Not a popular opinion I'm sure but there you go.

I also hate how prostitutes have been re branded as escorts. Its just to allow men to sound a bit less seedy when they get caught "on escort sites" rather than "booking a prostitute". I also, shockingly, come across women who think there is a difference and that escorts just "escort"

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 13/08/2020 10:30

What the police woman said was really interesting and it was this “sex workers help some marriages because if a man can relieve himself and be less stressed then domestic violence isn’t as prevalent in the lives of marriages where DV happens”, and she will know more than anyone here what she is taking about

No she won't. It's another myth based on prejudice and mysoginy. That prostitutes are disposable, acceptable collateral damage, somehow less and suited to deal with the "icky"( mostly violent and abusive) desires of men.

It has nothing to do with statistics or real life experience .

Inappropriatefemale · 13/08/2020 11:39

@HoneysuckIejasmine I’m nostalgic for some of the laughs I had with the girls, we all understood where we were coming from, and I was merely explaining something. Plus the money I made was good which was the sole purpose I did that job, who wouldn’t miss money they made once upon a time!

I find it awful that I’m being pulled apart for something that was my experience and my experience alone, you sound as if your saying I’m lying about hating the job, I’m anonymous here and I’ve been very honest and your all strangers to me, as I am to you so I have absolutely no reason to lie!

@DidoLamenting for god sake I know I was a prostitute, I am simply saying that I didn’t like the word. Changing careers because I don’t like that strangers on the internet call the job what it was...aye okay then.Hmm

Inappropriatefemale · 13/08/2020 11:45

Oh and I have now stopped the job, not very long ago mind you but I now have a normal part time job that doesn’t pay very well but I’m far happier.

I will say that I can’t say I will never ever do the escorting again though because I have took many breaks, as do all sex workers, and went back in the end as there will be something really expensive I need and saving for it will simply take too long. All I know now is that I can’t do it anymore, my mind and body can’t handle it anymore, especially my mind, and I’m sick of being unhappy, but I’m also unhappy when I don’t have money for nice things, I can’t help it, I’m never going to be able to have a job that pays the same as sex work unless I go to Uni for at least 4 years and even then, I’ll need a job whilst working and sex work will the easiest in terms of freedom of time that money allows, it’s a catch 22.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 13/08/2020 12:04

@DioneTheDiabolist

I've seen very little respect for sex workers on this board OP. They're all seen as victims or "Handmaids" here.
Bollocks.

As someone who was unlucky enough to get groomed into the supposedly glamorous side of prostitution (via Mayfair table dancing/Hostess clubs in the 90s) and who has written about it semi frequently on this board, I’d say the majority opinion is that prostitution is bad for society and that individuals who get caught up in it deserve compassion - that’s not the same as being a victim.

My own opinion is that prostitution is organised crime, largely for the benefit of men, who are the people who consume the product and make the most money out of it. Making that observation doesn’t mean every prostitute is a victim, and being part of it in your late teens and early 20s (when you are at your most saleable as a sexual product) doesn’t mean you are destined to be a handmaiden for eternity.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 13/08/2020 12:09

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

What the police woman said was really interesting and it was this “sex workers help some marriages because if a man can relieve himself and be less stressed then domestic violence isn’t as prevalent in the lives of marriages where DV happens”, and she will know more than anyone here what she is taking about

No she won't. It's another myth based on prejudice and mysoginy. That prostitutes are disposable, acceptable collateral damage, somehow less and suited to deal with the "icky"( mostly violent and abusive) desires of men.

It has nothing to do with statistics or real life experience .

Absolutely.

This attitude is grim as fuck. If anyone is a ‘handmaiden of the patriarcharchy’ it’s this female police officer, who seems to think it’s fine to buy and sell women as sex objects because it means a few less men will beat their female partners.

How about actually arresting Johns, pimps and perpetrators of domestic violence, eh Officer? 🙄

DidoLamenting · 13/08/2020 12:11

I'm still waiting for any coherent argument why "prostitute" should not be used.

After all its apologists are always banging on about it being "the oldest profession"

ThePankhurstConnection · 13/08/2020 12:14

@DidoLamenting

I'm still waiting for any coherent argument why "prostitute" should not be used.

After all its apologists are always banging on about it being "the oldest profession"

The oldest oppression.
DidoLamenting · 13/08/2020 12:14

[quote Inappropriatefemale]@HoneysuckIejasmine I’m nostalgic for some of the laughs I had with the girls, we all understood where we were coming from, and I was merely explaining something. Plus the money I made was good which was the sole purpose I did that job, who wouldn’t miss money they made once upon a time!

I find it awful that I’m being pulled apart for something that was my experience and my experience alone, you sound as if your saying I’m lying about hating the job, I’m anonymous here and I’ve been very honest and your all strangers to me, as I am to you so I have absolutely no reason to lie!

@DidoLamenting for god sake I know I was a prostitute, I am simply saying that I didn’t like the word. Changing careers because I don’t like that strangers on the internet call the job what it was...aye okay then.Hmm[/quote]
Oh I get you don't like the word- you've said so often enough, but you can't give any rational explanation why I should pander to you and call you a "sex worker"

You were boasting about how much money you were making- why the coyness about how you earned it?

DidoLamenting · 13/08/2020 12:15

oh absolutely Pankhurst - that trite hackneyed expression is not my view.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 13/08/2020 12:18

I prefer the term ‘prostitute’ because it has clear meaning - someone who directly participates in sexual activity for pay.

‘Sex worker’ muddies the waters too much, because it can encompass phone and online stuff, erotic dancers, brothel owners, pimps etc. A doctor who works with prostitutes even tried to declare herself a ‘sex worker’ in Teen Vogue, of all places

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.teenvogue.com/story/why-sex-work-is-real-work/amp

It’s Queer Theory again, trying to redefine words rather than make vulnerable people’s lives better.

madcatladyforever · 13/08/2020 12:21

I know a fair few sex workers as I work in the NHS and have worked in prisons in a medical capacity, they are normally women who are hooked on drugs to try and erase their miserable existences and general misery or to cope with the loss of the children who have been taken from them because of their chaotic lifestyles, they have been horribly abused by men and their pimps and selling themselves is the quickest way to pay for their ever increasing need for hard drugs.
They always die young.
I can assure you they loathe all of their Johns and wish they were dead, they are not interested in anyones husbands they only care about money for drugs.
I know a few high class escorts who come in for SDT checks locally and one is a personal friend of mine, they also only do it to earn a lot of money quick and none want to do it long term. I don't approve of their life choices but it isn't my life so I don't comment. My friend has a house out of it all paid for and intends to set up a business soon and give it up as she's heading for 40. She doesn't get emotionally attached to anyone and has difficulty forming relationships and she sees it as a business and nothing else. She is not interested in the men.

3rdNamechange · 13/08/2020 12:24

Wow Biscuit

Inappropriatefemale · 13/08/2020 12:24

@DidoLamenting you can call me a prostitute if you wish, I was only saying that I didn’t like being called this, I don’t want you or expect you to pander to me at all, obviously everyone except prostitutes, call themselves prostitutes. It’s more in real life to my face I hate it, and of course they don’t understand but I can’t expect them too really.

Not boasting about the money but merely explaining what sort of money I made to explain to some that don’t know, why the money is such a draw, I would rather boast about making good money because I worked a normal job where my brain made me successful in money, believe me!

I am so disappointed in myself because up to age 22 then I had a good job that paid well and if I had stuck at it then I could well be in an executive position, I was a secretary/PA when I was 22 and my parents thought I would go far in my career but then I got shit on from my DD dad and life went downhill from there...

Inappropriatefemale · 13/08/2020 12:28

@DidoLamenting coy about how I was making money?! Erm are we on the same thread?! I have literally came on here and said I was a prostitute! Where the hell is that coy?!

NewNewt · 13/08/2020 12:33

You sound very conflicted inapprofemale. I'm afraid I do feel sorry for you. You are/were a prostitute/sex worker. I think rather than quibbling over terminology, you should be getting some help coming to terms with that. I hope you are. At late thirties there's still a lot of life left to live.

Swipe left for the next trending thread