A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC

[noblegiraffe]

A gay friend of mine has written about how he went from TRA to GC from a gay perspective. He’s planning on writing some more essays about how the ‘gender cult’ is intrinsically homophobic.

I thought it might be useful to share as a counter to Owen Jones, who he previously believed was a reasonable person to listen to on this. He is also pretty gutted about what has happened to Stonewall, whose authority he trusted.

twitter.com/duncrail78/status/1291373475886768128?s=21

He didn't ask Stonewall. He asked his own workplace trans group if thought a woman saying trans women are not women is hate speech and should be reported and unsurprisingly they said yes. So this is self appointed group of moral arbiters do something you are all referring to as "reporting" but I can only describe as spiteful attempts to wreck somones reputation and career. Not only are they doing that but also they're using HR, which by the way is a largely female occupation, to do their dirty work and by so doing are also trashing HRs reputation by dragging us in. Stonewall is brought into organisations because it's what LGBT groups demand. HR people are no more likely to believe their stuff than the rest of the population, particularly women. And so it's a double whammy for HR. We are slagged off constantly for this rubbish despite the horrible maternity policies LGBT groups demand which delete the word women making us as sick as everyone else. This is one of the most upsetting things about trans ideology, how it's led to so much animosity for HR that we can do nothing about without men like Duncan trying to destroy our careers too.

Sick of it.

@Portnlemon

He didn't ask Stonewall. He asked his own workplace trans group if thought a woman saying trans women are not women is hate speech and should be reported and unsurprisingly they said yes. So this is self appointed group of moral arbiters do something you are all referring to as "reporting" but I can only describe as spiteful attempts to wreck somones reputation and career. Not only are they doing that but also they're using HR, which by the way is a largely female occupation, to do their dirty work and by so doing are also trashing HRs reputation by dragging us in. Stonewall is brought into organisations because it's what LGBT groups demand. HR people are no more likely to believe their stuff than the rest of the population, particularly women. And so it's a double whammy for HR. We are slagged off constantly for this rubbish despite the horrible maternity policies LGBT groups demand which delete the word women making us as sick as everyone else. This is one of the most upsetting things about trans ideology, how it's led to so much animosity for HR that we can do nothing about without men like Duncan trying to destroy our careers too.

Sick of it.

Yes, you are right, at least partly -

He says this was the kind of thing Stonewall said was hate, and the LGBT group and HR department at his job agreed when he asked them.

But I think that comes down to the same thing. People are being encouraged in this behaviour by groups who are considered to be experts and have moral authority. What's the point of the work LGBT group if not to advise someone about what to do when they see something that might be a problem? Many normal, nice people will think they know what they are doing, that is their purpose.

I think most of this stuff should never be resported. I think the thread about reporting the NHS women for racism was way, way out of line. But as long as groups seen as authorities on racism, or anti-Semitism, or homophobia, or transphobia, are saying it should happen, lots of people will take their advise.

Interesting post and I really hope that more people will become GC when they look at the facts for themselves rather than relying on others' skewed interpretations. Thank goodness that Duncan had a track record of discussion and definitely thank goodness for Marie.

Yes, you are right, at least partly -

He says this was the kind of thing Stonewall said was hate, and the LGBT group and HR department at his job agreed when he asked them.

No, he doesn't say that. If you are going to correct me then perhaps it would be a good idea to use what he actually says and not what you think he said .

Are you the actual HR person involved, Port? You seem particularly invested.

Thanks for the explanation, Port, it was a genuine thought having already had the victim unexpectedly on the thread, that someone else involved might be here too.

It is really interesting to hear your perspective and your insight that HR are predominantly female and the people complaining are predominantly male. Do you find that the leadership teams who eventually capitulate to the demands are also predominantly male?

I can see how you feel like you are getting the blame for enforcing policies imposed on you by others (teachers have the same deal). Do you feel that the number of complaints about individual behaviour on social media are increasing and becoming increasingly spurious?

In breakout groups during the session a woman said it's odd talking to you, you are the enemy. So that's why I am invested. This ideology, typified by agressive men, convinced they are right, have turned HR into enemies despite us not being any more convinced that men are women than the rest of the world

That’s a really shit position to be stuck in - sounds like Duncan should be considering apologising to staff in his HR department as well as Furious!

I recently found out a mum friend of mine, a university librarian, is tervey, so there must be genderwang dissent amongst lots of other uni staff - especially those not in academic roles. It’s easy to forget about people stuck in the middle, who are also unable to express their actual opinions.

Your perspective is invaluable, Port!

But the Duncan's of the world aren't going to make any effort to change that perception are they?

I don’t know, I was just talking to him about it and he’s basically mortified that he took that action and would now actively argue against anyone doing similar.

Maybe companies need to start reviewing their social media policies to avoid HR having to mediate in online spats? What do you think the solution is when companies have policies that do prohibit certain behaviour out of work?

www.timeshighereducation.com/files/times-higher-education-v-c-pay-survey-2018-full-results-0

Here's a survey of VC pay. A quick count of women, I make it 38 out of about 170 or 180. About a fifth. Predominantly male.

I don't think people bullying other people at work is getting better or worse, it's been going on for my whole career. This particular phase of identity led bullying has been well designed by the bullies however, as organisations are literally inviting them in and paying them to do it.

The sooner it ends the better. If Duncan can realise how he's been busy institutionalising the bullying of a captive group of people who can't escape him and his peers, despite it having absolutely nothing to do with jobs or work or the purpose of organisations, then that's great.

There's a rather unnoticed post on the 'busy' thread by a poster who has been disiplined at work in what sounds similar circumstances.

to anyone similarly affected

@Portnlemon

Yes, you are right, at least partly -

He says this was the kind of thing Stonewall said was hate, and the LGBT group and HR department at his job agreed when he asked them.

No, he doesn't say that. If you are going to correct me then perhaps it would be a good idea to use what he actually says and not what you think he said .

Sure thing, here is the exact quote:

^So after several days stewing over this I contacted my LGBT group, and our HR department.
I showed them the social media posts and asked “is this hate?”. I was aware of the hate that was covered up with concern — Stonewall had told me to beware of such a line of attack, and the trans group agreed. Yes this was hate and I should report her immediately to HR.^

He was unsure but the Stonewall advice seemed to say it was hate speech, when he contacted the relevant organisations in his workplace, they agreed.

You seem very sure that every person in every HR department thinks like you. Which is pretty obviously false to many of us who have seen HR departments which don't think that way, in person.

And I'd add to that - my point was that he was being told by the groups meant to give advice on issues relating to hate speech, and LGBT issues, that he was doing the right thing.

That is happening in a lot of these groups, people are told to report this stuff. There are threads on it, with regard to other groups, all the time.

If we set these groups up as authorities, guess what - people will treat them as authorities.

Social media policies are meant to try to reduce complaining. But of course they get misused. People motivated to bully will use anything.

Ultimately uni leadership cares very much about the well being of their students even if privately they consider identity to be just yet another youth movement.

But Duncan isn't a youth, he must be 40 odd. And this is not just a university problem.

Anyway, glad this thread came up so I can get this off my chest. People love a good moan about HR and I am used to that but I'm not taking the blame for this identity shit show.

You seem very sure that every person in every HR department thinks like you. Which is pretty obviously false to many of us who have seen HR departments which don't think that way, in person.

No I am not. I've said repeatedly that HR are no more likely to believe this than the rest of the population. I know there are believers in HR. I've met them.

An HR department doesn't think with a hive mind. It's a collection of people with a wide range of politics and religion and values. We have to implement the policy adopted if we agree or not.

and the trans group agreed. Yes this was hate and I should report her immediately to HR.^

Where in any of those sentences does it say HR agreed it was hate speech?

You are misreading my comments too.

If Duncan can realise how he's been busy institutionalising the bullying of a captive group of people who can't escape him and his peers, despite it having absolutely nothing to do with jobs or work or the purpose of organisations, then that's great.

Tbf to Duncan (and god I know I’m being his mouthpiece and cheerleader and isn’t it just like a man to send a woman to do his work for him....but I posted his article so I should engage in discussion about it), he isn’t being quiet about this. He is posting under his real name and he is fully informing his workplace of his actions, including sending his essays to the aforementioned LGBT group with the hope of changing minds and averting any future similar incidents.

I understand the irony of his ability to do this with the consent of his workplace (so long as they are not named) given that he actively prevented a woman from doing similar on a much smaller scale. I guess that’s male privilege working in his favour but I can also work in our favour so long as we see it as him working to address his tribe using his perspective rather than ‘man takes over ailing feminist movement at last’.

Given that this thread is called ‘A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC’ it would appear that another peak has been reached.

twitter.com/duncrail78/status/1292469282643816448?s=21

Duncan is furious, and I mean properly furious, that the word ‘gay’ is being redefined to include men who sleep with people with vaginas and that he is now a subset of his own sexuality. A not very good subset of his own sexuality - one who is ‘picky’ about genitals.

He says he now truly gets how women feel about being redefined as a subset of ‘woman’.

I find it dispiriting but not surprising that the author 'researched' JK Rowling's transphobia by looking at Pink News and TRA social media, and posted his own opinion about it online, weeks before actually reading her article.

noble
It’s good that he’s properly furious. I hope you can appreciate as a woman, I struggle to find solidarity with a man, who caused so much anguish to another woman. What I see is a man stomping his foot for 5 minutes when women have been fighting for their rights for centuries. A couple of months ago he was stomping his foot for the opposite reason. From his writing I don’t think he has the depth of thinking to get what it is really like for some women, who fight for their very survival.

He may get how it feels now. Does he get how it has felt for centuries? How women are being attacked on every front?

It’s just that all those years of me being told that I ‘can’t do this’ or ‘should do that‘ because I am a girl, or because I am a woman, or because I am a mother now... and because of living in my female body this long in all its positives and all its negatives.. these things have made me very very sure I am a woman. And that biological sex is real and unchanging. And that gender is stereotypes which are a trap. And that’s partly because other people have spent a lot of time policing my womaning. Which men just don’t seem to experience or appreciate in the same way.

Thanks for this - a lightbulb went off for about the way that women’s bodies are policed so much more heavily and the differing experience of males. In fact, that could easily be a factor in gender non-conforming men wanting to transition into a role or identity where the ‘transgressive presentation’ is accepted and some of the pressure lifts, a return to their usual state of play. For women, we grow up being commented on and subjected to pressure about what’s OK and not OK, so we don’t see the issue - that’s just how it is for most of us.

Thank you for this @noblegiraffe and for what you age discussed with him.

I find it very interesting what you say about that as a gay man, women and women's experiences and sexism were completely off his radar till you explicitly pointed it out to him.

Because, I sometimes feel there are a lot of gay childless men in positions of power to make decisions or to influence policy. Eg in education, Moffat of No Outsiders, Glazzard at Leeds Beckett.

I'm sure this is by no means the norm but Moffat especially appears to ignore the female experience and sexism.

so many women are horrified at the way that womanhood has been quietly retooled to mean something else (to some people) and that the new meaning has been adopted by the law (GRA). I find it absolutely hostile and chilling to see regulatory capture all over the public sector and now in the private sector at influential companies like Google or High street historical figures that have become read as a token of UK identity like M&S.

Hostile and chilling is bang on.

@1000umbrellas It wasn’t JK Rowling’s article that he was posting about online when he ‘researched her transphobia’. It was her tweet in solidarity with Maya Forstater that he was talking about. He read Rowling’s words but wasn’t sure what to make of it. He read stuff online about what Maya had done, including that she’d ‘deliberately misgendered a colleague’, which was going around at the time, but obviously wasn’t true.

I hope you can appreciate as a woman, I struggle to find solidarity with a man, who caused so much anguish to another woman.

Of course. I read her posts at the time and felt immense sympathy for her, I don’t think I’d have posted if I’d made the connection. He was essentially radicalised by Mumsnet though.

What I see is a man stomping his foot for 5 minutes when women have been fighting for their rights for centuries.

It is another angle to this particular fight. There is blatant homophobia and as a gay man, he has had his own struggle. That may speak to a different audience, which some here might find a useful tool.