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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC

165 replies

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2020 15:05

A gay friend of mine has written about how he went from TRA to GC from a gay perspective. He’s planning on writing some more essays about how the ‘gender cult’ is intrinsically homophobic.

I thought it might be useful to share as a counter to Owen Jones, who he previously believed was a reasonable person to listen to on this. He is also pretty gutted about what has happened to Stonewall, whose authority he trusted.

twitter.com/duncrail78/status/1291373475886768128?s=21

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Abhannmor · 07/08/2020 18:39

Vermeil, you certainly have a way with words. Very well summed up!

Mummyoflittledragon · 07/08/2020 18:44

Vermeil
Yes, I agree, full of incels. As for the “oldskool transsexuals”, they have been labelled TRUSCUM by the TRA’s.

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2020 18:47

To be fair I'm on holiday at the moment and haven't checked work emails for a couple of weeks. But I'm now tempted to charge up my work phone to check!

@FuriousAndFrustrated He says to check your work email to show he withdrew his complaint.

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noblegiraffe · 07/08/2020 18:50

And also to contact him if there is anything he can do personally to make amends.

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Portnlemon · 07/08/2020 18:53

He definitely should apologise properly. I am disgusted that people try to get others sacked over this. It's spiteful and pathetic.
Saying he wanted to feel righteous for trying to destroy someones income is nasty. What a nasty man.

WaltzingBetty · 07/08/2020 18:59

Good article and I'm glad he's reflected on the science/reality.
He should however take responsibility for some of his own decisions - reporting his colleague for example.

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2020 19:11

trying to destroy someones income is nasty

He wouldn’t be my friend if that had been his intent.

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wellbehavedwomen · 07/08/2020 19:13

@Muttonindistress

‘Their desire for the right to a quiet, happy life has been hijacked by gobby incels with winged eyeliner and pink and blue baseball bats who think their dicks are great.’

I think this one sentence is the best summation of the problem with trans-activism I’ve seen to date. 👍

Really is, isn't it.
miri1985 · 07/08/2020 19:24

Another great example of how important it was for JKR to speak out, what she did had such an impact. Shes such a beloved figure and presented her points so well that if people took the time to actually read what she had written the wool was pulled from their eyes.

So many brave women in his story from the woman at work who tried to speak out, to the woman on facebook who politely asked questions that should have been easily answerable if it held up to any scrutiny to Maya.

This is a textbook example of why TRA's insisted on no debate and even discussion is hateful.

JellyFishSquish · 07/08/2020 19:38

Absolutely, miri1985 about the importance of JKR in how attitudes and opinions are changing.

And I really appreciate this man describing how he slowly realised he had been wrong, and being so honest about it. He could have seen the truth and just gone quiet, not admitted any culpability. This tells me and others that some of those people who are still where he was-- they are reachable.

FuriousAndFrustrated · 07/08/2020 20:08

I can confirm that I've today received a copy of the email sent to our corporate HR department on 30th June, withdrawing the report:

" I have now reflected and would like to remove my complaint and ensure it is not recorded on the employees record as raised by me. I no longer believe what she posted was hateful, and I was incorrect in my assumptions."

Seems pretty genuine to me. (And I'm not surprised nothing has happened so far.... our HR are notoriously inefficient!)

Thanks @noblegiraffe

Vermeil · 07/08/2020 20:17

Thanks, peeps.
Isn’t it just a crying bloody shame, though? ☹️

testing987654321 · 07/08/2020 20:45

This tells me and others that some of those people who are still where he was-- they are reachable.

It's why we need to keep talking about the issues and our concerns, we know our arguments stand up to being debated.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 07/08/2020 20:46

It's great that he has the empathy and courage to acknowledge what has happened. It doesn't bear thinking about what might have happened to FuriousAndFrustrated had the employer / HR acted differently. It also highlights the immense power of Stonewall and LGBT groups . Stonewall can persuade companies like M & S & countless others to remove safe single sex facilities from women and girls at will and in businesses LGBT groups can have complaints recorded against colleagues for talking about women's rights.

OvaHere · 07/08/2020 21:00

That's great @FuriousAndFrustrated I'm glad it's being cleared up (pending HR sorting it obvs)

ValancyRedfern · 07/08/2020 21:16

So glad it's been cleared up. This is a great pair of articles. I vowed not to share more GC stuff on FB after my last debacle with 2 friends (one gay one lesbian) this may just tempt me back into the fray...

FuriousAndFrustrated · 07/08/2020 21:31

Incidentally there's a slight inaccuracy in his first piece - I was not instructed to remove my post, I chose to do so when threatened with the HR report as I could not risk my employment being jeopardised. (And I was furious with myself for my cowardice.)

Turns out I'm losing my job anyway as part of massive redundancies, so if it happened again I would hope to be less of a wuss!

aliasundercover · 07/08/2020 22:03

Don't call yourself a wuss FuriousAndFrustrated, we've all had to compromise at times. Knowing when to stand and when to concede is smart - there's little point in fighting a battle you cannot win.

I think some people here are being a bit harsh on Duncan. He's open minded enough to change his view when presented with new evidence/arguments - how many of us could truly say the same? And he's apologised and begun to make amends. At the time he felt he was doing the right thing, supporting the downtrodden. With all the crap that Stonewall has been pumping out for the last few years it's understandable he was fooled. What's really evil is when people say and do stuff they know is untrue or unjustified - Owen Jones is a prime example of this many times over.

I can easily imagine how I might have ended up as a TRA. I vaguely felt that way when trans was hardly an issue to anyone, and if I'd listened to a few old friends when the topic first became contentious I might have headed in that direction. Like many people I can be stubborn, and once I've made my mind up it can be hard for me to change.
Luckily for me the first time I became aware there was a conflict was the Anarchist book fair stuff. My initial reaction was to side with the TRAs, but as I read what happened I found myself thinking that something wasn't right there, especially as I've always admired Helen Steel. Next I heard about the TRA attacking a woman at Hyde Park, and this was enough for me to go reading and learning.

Anyway, my point is that I've been wrong many times in the past, and I've no doubt I will be again - we can only act for what we think is good with the understanding we have at the time. The important thing is to keep thinking and learning and listening.

Sorry, that turned into a sermon by the end. I just think Duncan is doing the right thing now, and we should be welcoming to people like him. We actually need TRAs to change their minds and should encourage it.

Dervel · 07/08/2020 22:47

That was a powerfully and well written piece, I think people who have the capacity to change their mind are like gold dust in this world, but I would counsel him to not be too angry at his “side” mainly for “there but for the grace of god go I” reasons.

We’re capable of sliding into dogma. What I would advise is for him to carry on with what he started in his article and try to exhibit the patience and eloquence of his old university friend.

I’ve been ruminating on issues like these recently, and I had historically been guilty of blaming identity politics, like so many on the right are want to do these days, but I’ve had something of a lightbulb moment and can see all these idpol movements (be they feminist, sexual orientation, religious, economic or even racial) have come about precisely from oppression from a more conservative (usually Christian if it’s the west) that refused to see members of those groups as individuals, as in membership in any group was more important than individual identity, and what has happened is those groups have quite understandably formed communities to be safe, but it inadvertently falls into the same trap as as the conservative right that caused the initial problem.

Now I as a straight white male find myself suddenly being pre-judged as a member of those groups, and actually for the moment that’s fine as I think it has given me insights I may not have arrived at otherwise, as for the majority of my life that straight white male privilege afforded me the right to be judged as an individual on my own merits. I wonder if this trans rights movement is some attempt to claim back that hitherto unquestioned privilege now it has started to be robustly challenged?

I think to ruminate a lot more to come up with something more coherent.

Cascade220 · 07/08/2020 23:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DidoLamenting · 08/08/2020 01:46

@WildishBambino

He has apologised indirectly via a mutual friend, but hasn't (or hadn't when I last checked) withdrawn his report to HR.

If he's not attempted to undo the damage he's done, which might be embarrassing for him, then his big public mea culpa is worth jack shit.

He came across as an insufferable little prig running and telling HR.
ItsLateHumpty · 08/08/2020 03:53

Really aggressive responses from Shadi Petosky on twitter. Blue tick with a large following, but their tweets don’t get much traction.
From reading around, I would surmise that this person is a transwoman, who is also very angry at Buck Angel.

twitter.com/shadipetosky/status/1291660200286461956

Shadi Petosky @shadipetosky
Replying to @duncrail78
So you’re an isolationist who basically had no connection to LGBTQ culture, didn’t live in a gayborhood etc. and basically know no trans people — you were a casual supporter not a “trans rights activist” on any way really.

ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2020 06:16

While I think it is good that he has spoken out, I remain to be convinced that this is not just another man, centering his own thinking, he thought he was right, now he is using his own words to say he is right again rather than putting forward the position of women, front and centre to counteract the overwhelming misogyny that fuels much of this debate.

ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 08:31

Flowers Furiousandfrustrated I can only imagine how upsetting it was to have your job threatened by this. I’m sorry about the redundancy too. And whoever Marie is she has done women a really good turn.

It was brave of Duncan to write this and I can see that he’s trying to ‘do what is right not what is easy’ as he says, by doing so. I’d expect that he is also rightly feeling some shame and guilt about reporting a woman to their HR department for having some views that he and his group didn’t like. I would be interested to hear more if he writes more about this for Medium. What threat did he feels that she posed? What did he want to happen by reporting her? What did he feel like once he’d done it? Who was it done to benefit? (and who does he feel actually did benefit?)

And I can appreciate that It must be hard for Duncan to feel the strong change in reaction to the rainbow flag that he has come to feel. Something that once offered safety and solidarity and community and fun has been used as a Trojan Horse to represent a divisive politics that is antithetical to same-sex attraction, all without the consent of the majority of the same-sex attracted people who built the community that gave the rainbow flag its meaning and who still rely it as a signal of community and safety. And for the future- this affects all the people coming out, who can no longer have any certainty in what the flag will really mean or what it will point them towards. Particularly if they are lesbian or bisexual women.

There’s lots of other people feel that way about the rainbow flag now- www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3834960-What-do-you-think-about-the-rainbow-flag
these are both LGB people and women who fear the actions of people (like Duncan) who might try to get at them in some way because the woman is standing up for women in some way against genderist politics. Maybe even in such a controversial way Hmm as posting online saying that she doesn’t agree with it, or just, you know, as a woman defining the word woman. Like the actual dictionary does. The silencing that is going on is really scary. I would be interested to hear former TRA’s reflections on this. (And reporting a woman to HR for being gender critical is TRA behaviour in my book)

I am not trying to be self righteous about assuming that Duncan has guilt and shame. (I mean, I think he must do- he should do?) Shame and guilt motivate me too, I know that much. How many of us on here have posted about shame and guilt for not speaking up and doing more for women because we fear for our jobs, privacy, children, mental health, lots of other reasons? I have felt all that, its a relatively common theme on FWR. I support the crowdfunders and applaud the sheroes speaking out gratefully because they’re doing something I don’t feel able to do and they are taking an immense amount of shit to help all of us.

So it’s great that the LGB alliance is now here for same-sex attracted people and hopefully can be a coalescing point for anyone who will find that helpful. Like it’s great there have been the various gender critical women’s groups and lesbian and detransitioned women’s groups emerging or becoming more prominent in the last few years, obviously many women on here will have started or been involved with some or all of these.

I can appreciate that Duncan’s realisation about genderism must have prompted a similar feeling to what women on here have called becoming ‘politically homeless’ - when you realise no political party will stand up for women so there’s no one to vote for.

I mean same-sex attracted people realising what Stonewall, their LGB groups and venues etc have become and how that affects especially people coming out and needing to be in touch with other out people- that sense of dislocation from what you thought was your community. So I would be interested to hear about his thoughts on Party politics as informed by his disillusionment, if he writes more on all this.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 09:01

It isn’t just women that are affected though, it’s also a homophobic movement - anyone who saw that awful video of that poor young lesbian can’t be in any doubt that sexuality is also under attack.

Given that one of the main drivers of the debate in this country is Stonewall and Duncan fell in line with their thinking because it was Stonewall and they’d supported him in his fight (when he came out, Section 28 was still in place, for example), it is good to understand the unthinking allegiance that means gay men may have a blind spot here.

He had no real concept of sexism until a few years ago. As a gay male with mostly male friends and no children, he just treated women as another set of people he occasionally interacted with and had no idea that other men behaved so poorly towards them. Because he’s gay and there’s no power imbalances in his sexual relationships and dealings with men, he just kind of assumed that’s how the world was. He had a similar scales dropping from his eyes moment on that front.

Hopefully as a gay man he might be able to reach other gay men on the homophobia because while women speaking up is obviously vital, gay men might not see women’s rights as anything to do with them, or even understand it as an issue.

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