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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC

165 replies

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2020 15:05

A gay friend of mine has written about how he went from TRA to GC from a gay perspective. He’s planning on writing some more essays about how the ‘gender cult’ is intrinsically homophobic.

I thought it might be useful to share as a counter to Owen Jones, who he previously believed was a reasonable person to listen to on this. He is also pretty gutted about what has happened to Stonewall, whose authority he trusted.

twitter.com/duncrail78/status/1291373475886768128?s=21

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Portnlemon · 08/08/2020 09:06

@FuriousAndFrustrated

I can confirm that I've today received a copy of the email sent to our corporate HR department on 30th June, withdrawing the report:

" I have now reflected and would like to remove my complaint and ensure it is not recorded on the employees record as raised by me. I no longer believe what she posted was hateful, and I was incorrect in my assumptions."

Seems pretty genuine to me. (And I'm not surprised nothing has happened so far.... our HR are notoriously inefficient!)

Thanks @noblegiraffe

You are assuming that HR have done nothing because they are notoriously inneficiant. The reality is nothing has been done because there is nothing to be done. When HR get people complaining about each other over stuff that is irrelevant to their job we just humour them until they go away. We aren't interested in your squabbles but some, like this man, think we must jump when they say jump. Rather than have him start moaning about us next we say look I'm jumping.

So we get used as the bogyman by people wanting to damage each other and when we just ignore this nonsense we get called inefficient.

What would you expect HR to do that was more efficient? Waste more time getting involved in your non work related argument? That is the opposite of efficient, the efficient thing to do is just forget about it immediately.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 09:24

I am not trying to be self righteous about assuming that Duncan has guilt and shame.

He does, and also anger, a lot of it at himself, for being duped and finding himself in the wrong where he thought he was doing the right thing.

This guy was on social media talking about how LGB Alliance were a hate group simply because that’s what he’d been told they were by people he trusted.

I know there’s a tendency on MN to see that this might simply be another man spotting an opportunity to blow his own trumpet about how he’s the font of all knowledge and everyone should listen to him, but he is genuinely gutted and trying to make amends. He’s now a member of the LGB Alliance (hate group!), he’s donated to Allison Bailey and other crowd funders, he’s apologised to JK Rowling and Maya Forstater and I think these essays (he has more to come) are his attempt at action rather than self-aggrandisement.

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Mummyoflittledragon · 08/08/2020 09:37

Because he’s gay and there’s no power imbalances in his sexual relationships and dealings with men, he just assumed that’s how the world was.

That is a really interesting point. I had never thought of the world from this perspective either, not being male.

gay men might not see women’s rights as anything to do with them, or even understand it is an issue.

This will follow from your point above. It would be nice, however, if ill informed gay men could listen rather than lecture. Does Duncan have any ideas of what more he could be doing to address this?

DidoLamenting · 08/08/2020 09:41

@ChateauMargaux

While I think it is good that he has spoken out, I remain to be convinced that this is not just another man, centering his own thinking, he thought he was right, now he is using his own words to say he is right again rather than putting forward the position of women, front and centre to counteract the overwhelming misogyny that fuels much of this debate.
I agree. I still think he comes across as an insufferable little prig , even after the apology.

trying to destroy someones income is nasty

He wouldn’t be my friend if that had been his intent

I don't know how you can believe that. What he did had every possibility of the person he complained about losing their job.

HuckfromScandal · 08/08/2020 09:43

In my experience - our best allies and strongest supporters Can be people who started out on the “other side”. I know that’s where I was several years ago.

As we have had to come to terms with the circularity of the arguments. I for one, welcome Duncan, and I hope that we can all be the bigger people in accepting that not all of us “get it’ right from the outset.

teawamutu · 08/08/2020 10:03

I've seen Duncan's conversion played out on Twitter. Fwiw I think he comes across as genuine, it's a great piece and full credit to him for holding his hands up and apologising.

Shows the danger of Stonewall being unquestionably accepted as The Goodies.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 10:16

I don't know how you can believe that.

It’s true that I don’t know what his real motivation was in the heat of the moment, but from what I know of him and what he has said about the incident, I don’t believe he was out to get anyone sacked.

I’m sure it felt very different from @FuriousAndFrustrated ‘s perspective and I remember her thread at the time and being horrified and worried on her behalf. In fact her thread is one of the main reasons that I hold back from talking to people about this topic in real life. It didn’t quite stop me from talking to Duncan about it, which is rather ironic given that the thread was about him (although obviously I didn’t know that till this thread). And I talked to him about Furious’s experience in terms of women being silenced, again without knowing I was talking to the perpetrator.

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ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 10:58

(Sorry my posts are really long).

It’s interesting to me that while we do need to eventually find common ground on this issue, the genderised asymmetry is everywhere and we have to all see that to move forward and act on it. It’s never been six of one and half a dozen of the other.

I also know men and women like this who have taken on the genderist cause, out of sympathy with themselves or for other men who don’t fit the gender conforming mould. I get that. I take on women’s causes in much the same way.

And I get it that some of them assume that a lot more surgical change has been made (euphemism) than actually happens when they think about transwomen. But then I immediately think, why would that matter? Doing a load of surgery or not doing any- neither makes you a woman. The men I know are not dating transwomen if they are straight or transmen if they are gay. So they do see the difference.

I’m just trying to bridge the gap in my understanding about how (understandably) any man’s male perspective, may have informed their thinking on gender- such that they could ever really believe or want to make others agree, that a man having a particular thought, or wearing particular clothes, or having particular operations.. could ever ‘make’ that man a woman.

The belief of woman as something that other people can legitimately define, is what Duncan’s writing expresses to me in my reading of his writing. But he doesn’t seem to quite explore consciously how and why he felt that way. I’m interested in what can we do with all that if it’s a commonly-held POV, and how we can use it to move forward?

Why was it that at the start of his timeline Duncan didn’t instinctively say to himself on learning of this new politics, that of course you can never become a woman, if you were born a man. (I mean, I know the answer to that ..). But what a huge experience gap it shows. To a lot of women, the idea that you can’t change into a woman is as indisputable as the sun rising and setting every day.

(And as a gay man, did Duncan really genuinely see transmen as the exact same as other men? Like at the same time he was drafting off that email to HR because a colleague said that TWANW? Tho I don’t know exactly what the colleague said, TBF- apologies if that wasn’t it)

He says the scales fell from his eyes with Marie informing him of the widening of the trans umbrella, so he began to see the category of trans as unreliable. He has not written clearly that he saw the category of sex as reliable. I think it took Marie to show him that?

So this would be an example of male privilege. Sorry- not trying to be mean and personal to Duncan- he’s obviously not the only one to wear those blinkers. I am not ignoring his great deficit of privilege in other ways- being gaybashed at school must have been horrific and I’m sure he will have encountered other homophobic incidents.

It’s just that all those years of me being told that I ‘can’t do this’ or ‘should do that‘ because I am a girl, or because I am a woman, or because I am a mother now... and because of living in my female body this long in all its positives and all its negatives.. these things have made me very very sure I am a woman. And that biological sex is real and unchanging. And that gender is stereotypes which are a trap. And that’s partly because other people have spent a lot of time policing my womaning. Which men just don’t seem to experience or appreciate in the same way.

Duncan says ‘Most people who identify as trans women do not have full sex reassignment treatment. Most are still physically male, and when I found out that cross-dressers and what we used to call “transvestites” are now “trans women”, the entire house of cards that was my gender ideology began to collapse.‘

So I guess his writing is helping me to reflect that I had assumed that everyone really believed that you can’t change sex and that they were just trying to be kind in saying otherwise. Because I mean, what is ‘full sex reassignment treatment’? a Full or part.. of what? A ‘sex reassignment operation’ doesn’t mean that you ‘become a woman’.

And, a bit like the loss of the rainbow flag’s meaning or the loss of the positive politics that Stonewall used to represent, that Duncan describes- so many women are horrified at the way that womanhood has been quietly retooled to mean something else (to some people) and that the new meaning has been adopted by the law (GRA). I find it absolutely hostile and chilling to see regulatory capture all over the public sector and now in the private sector at influential companies like Google or High street historical figures that have become read as a token of UK identity like M&S.

‘Womanhood’ whether with positive or negative connotations in how women are viewed, has been the idea that informed the creation of spaces and institutions for female-only fun, solidarity, education, care, or safety, or correction, away from men. Political groups for women, Lesbian/women’s-only club nights, lesbian bars, girls secondary schools, women’s higher education institutions, the old ‘mother and baby homes’, women’s prisons and DV shelters etc

These initiatives rely on the idea of womanhood as a separate thing from manhood. Women’s time often in face of male opposition, was crucial to build these initiatives. They all crucially acknowledge the asymmetrical power relationship between the two sexes, and often that the position of women often affects the possible outcomes for children.

Sorry this is so long. I am just seeing more clearly that all this is not about the category of trans people, it’s about the category of women.

Because patriarchy means that for a lot of people, the sexed category of men Hmm) is not a category that they feel they have the power to define.

That’s even though they are not a woman and the down sides of any redefinition of women won’t affect them. Or, they are a woman but have class or social capital or other resources enough not to need many ‘women’s‘ services that now let in men.

And as abstract political thought experiments none of that would matter that much, were it not that a lot of other people will unquestioningly accept that new definition of women and seek to reinforce and police it in real life. While feeling that this redefinition is all an act of soldarity with GNC men. (Like reporting a woman to HR for being gender critical..)

This isn’t anything new, it’s the logical conclusion of a sexist politics. Genderism is a product of sexism. But i found it interesting to think about the rights of redefinition and the misplaced solidarity with men as a real driver of behaviour in the way Duncan describes it in his writing, and I hope he writes more about that.

We do need to all work together to end the culture war. (it’s too one sided to be a ‘War’ - ‘culture attack’ feels more accurate?) So it’s good to feel that there are ways that friends can reach each other and talk like Marie and Duncan did. We need Parliamentary reform, repeal the GRC and rely on EqA but reflecting on this, I might also try to stick my neck out again with friends as a matter of understanding each other for the sake of our old friendships.

I find it really interesting and helpful to have insight into the drivers for other people’s politics so these Medium pieces were interesting to read. Sorry to waffle on.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 08/08/2020 11:04

It's often been said on here that people need to be enabled to back away from TWAW and all the other mantras. We need people to see what's happening and openly change their mind. Most of us started as sympathetic allies but rarely 'nailed our flags to the mast ' so to speak - just nodded along until we realised what we were agreeing to. Duncan however was in the full on "terfs are bigots" group.
So I will continue to applaud Duncan for being able to change his mind and having the courage to do so publicly. We need many more men like him to see what is happening to women as a consequence of all this and to speak out.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 08/08/2020 11:07

That's a really interesting post ChattyLion. We do need to work together to end the culture war but it's bloody hard with so many organisations implacable opposed to women and our rights.

ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2020 12:12

I would love to see the Twitter response if a lesbian wrote the same thing or if a heterosexual female wrote the same thing.

I am gender non conforming female who supported trans rights but now I am gender critical.. anyone up for it?

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 12:20

And as a gay man, did Duncan really genuinely see transmen as the exact same as other men?

Well, I am sure that he will be writing more on this from his perspective, but he did consider trans men, even without bottom surgery, as potential sexual partners. This was one of the last things to fall for him in our discussions (and it wasn’t me that tipped that one) which I found baffling as I thought ‘genital fetish’ was a clear way in. I think he found some trans men attractive and hadn’t really considered the logistics because it was theoretical.

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ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 12:26

Thanks noble I do find that baffling but I guess it shows how genderism is political, in the sense of a theory, an idea, an identity, something ‘right’ to campaign for, and not a reality in some people’s lives- yet women saying ‘this affects my life’ doesn’t get traction. The asymmetry again, because patriarchy.

By the way as much as I think he’s brave to write about it, I think you are being brave to talk about it too as a friend so that is brave of you.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 12:35

Really aggressive responses from Shadi Petosky on twitter. Blue tick with a large following, but their tweets don’t get much traction: “So you’re an isolationist who basically had no connection to LGBTQ culture, didn’t live in a gayborhood etc. and basically know no trans people — you were a casual supporter not a “trans rights activist” on any way really.”

Those tweets were really interesting to read - someone banging on about Judith Butler and telling a gay man that they weren’t gay enough to have an opinion on LGBTQ because they, as a gay man, weren’t challenging gender.

Douglas Murray has written about the split in the gay community in The Madness of Crowds (which I’m currently reading and had an interesting chapter on gay rights which he knows about and a terrible chapter on feminism which he doesn’t). The split is between those who are in favour of a queer culture that transgresses modern society (the ones who are no doubt behind Drag Queen Story Time and the ones who publicly display fetishes at Pride) and gay people who simply want to have sex with the same sex and get on with their lives, so it was interesting to see this play out on twitter.

A gay man rejecting the path Stonewall is taking is fine, because he’s the wrong kind of gay.

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noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 12:50

I think you are being brave to talk about it too as a friend so that is brave of you.

Thanks, it was a calculated risk, which is mad isn’t it, when it’s a friend?

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ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 12:51

Chateau also I would genuinely really like to read someone explaining why they became a TRA or just a genderism believer and without resorting to sex stereotypes, denial of biological fact or relying on any fake statistics.

ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2020 12:54

@ChattyLion... that would also be interesting...

bishopgiggles · 08/08/2020 14:15

ChattyLion well, that's one big reason why I started coming to FWR. TRAs occasionally pop on, "unsure what the issue is" women too, lots of people denouncing FWR as transphobic. I am keen to understand the logic, mindset, attitude, whatever you want to call it, that underlies the rigid pro-self-ID, TWAW belief because I thought there must be something I'm missing?

It doesn't matter how politely or simply I question people, if they're not resorting to sex stereotypes etc they simply ignore the question. Or occasionally admit they're not sure and it's tricky but don't attempt any further teasing out of their own position.

Or some of the actual trans people think the TRAs are in no way representative of their own beliefs and experiences and keep out of all trans politics discussions/social media groups etc. These are the ones "just getting on with their lives" and I fear are left behind in all this.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 08/08/2020 14:23

Really interesting articles, and quite amazing to have the subject of his HR complaint on the board. I'm sorry your job is going, Furious I sincerely hope something new turns up sharpish.

Two things about this really stand out to me. The first is the near-demonising of anyone who disagrees with a particular ideological position, and the refusal to consider the world from their POV or even to let them speak.

The second is the importance of not blindly accepting what you are told by any organisation, especially a pressure group, or by any individual, especially one who might be wearing blinkers. I've got into the habit in the past five years or so of tracking right back into the original research. It's time consuming but if something matters enough to me, I'll check the stats and the details and the chain of events.

WildishBambino · 08/08/2020 15:00

"I have now reflected and would like to remove my complaint and ensure it is not recorded on the employees record as raised by me. I no longer believe what she posted was hateful, and I was incorrect in my assumptions."

So he can write thousands of words on Medium, but can barely manage two sentences to HR after trying to get someone sacked? I remember the original thread and IIRC there were a few 'nice job you have, be a shame if something happened to it' messages to FuriousAndFrustrated, and he went to HR after only she wouldn't obey him and recant on social media. He's now on twitter saying "I am available if she needs any help" - ugh. What is it that TRAs always say about making other people do the emotional labour?

His behaviour comes across as rather performative.

WildishBambino · 08/08/2020 15:01

To add, I'm all for people changing their mind. I started off as 'why can't you be nice to these poor trans people' but I never actively tried to harm people with different opinions.

ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 15:15

Great username Wildish
I’m all for people changing minds too, just keen to understand the whys and wherefores. I do think if people apologise sincerely that does mean something but also I get it that some things are too hard to get past on a personal level.

DidoLamenting · 08/08/2020 15:28

@WildishBambino

"I have now reflected and would like to remove my complaint and ensure it is not recorded on the employees record as raised by me. I no longer believe what she posted was hateful, and I was incorrect in my assumptions."

So he can write thousands of words on Medium, but can barely manage two sentences to HR after trying to get someone sacked? I remember the original thread and IIRC there were a few 'nice job you have, be a shame if something happened to it' messages to FuriousAndFrustrated, and he went to HR after only she wouldn't obey him and recant on social media. He's now on twitter saying "I am available if she needs any help" - ugh. What is it that TRAs always say about making other people do the emotional labour?

His behaviour comes across as rather performative.

He is a pompous , arrogant and puffed up with his own importance. He comes across as deeply unpleasant.
noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 15:53

Of course Furious is completely in the right on this one and what Duncan did was unacceptable BUT as some people here are wanting to understand motives, I think there is a path to understanding, if not condoning (and I am not condoning).

I just did a quick MN search on reporting to HR. It threw up a thread where a person was concerned about a colleague posting racist posts on Facebook. Some people recommended reporting the person to HR. Some people think this is the right thing to do in that scenario, especially when it is against the company social media policy. (There were also people on the thread who thought it shouldn’t be reported to HR).

I know that posting in favour of women’s rights and against gender ideology isn’t anything like racism to us but at the time Duncan thought it was hate speech. He had been told that this sort of hate speech leads to trans people committing suicide. He was the LGBT lead at work and so could well have seen it as his duty (not malicious duty, but responsible duty) to try to have the post removed.

I’ve no idea how much of a bellend he was about it. It is entirely possible pomposity was involved.

But you’re not going to change people’s minds by assuming that they are simply nasty and motivated by ill-intent.

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ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 16:23

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