For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

“The definition hasn't changed. A few men on Twitter saying that it has doesn't make it true.”

But it’s not just a few men on Twitter is it? If it it was it wouldn’t be such a dominant issue. People have different views.

So no comments yet on the trans policy of male cross dressers using female facilities? Tara Hewitt makes a point in training videos that even if it's for sexual purposes they are going to use female facilities .

Sexual harrasment is any unwanted sexual conduct. So if a woman working for Redtrees has to use female facilities with a male cross dressing for sexual purposes as recommended by Tara Hewitt in NHS training and makes a complaint to Redtrees of unwanted sexual conduct what would you do Redtrees?

@Portnlemon

So no comments yet on the trans policy of male cross dressers using female facilities? Tara Hewitt makes a point in training videos that even if it's for sexual purposes they are going to use female facilities .

Sexual harrasment is any unwanted sexual conduct. So if a woman working for Redtrees has to use female facilities with a male cross dressing for sexual purposes as recommended by Tara Hewitt in NHS training and makes a complaint to Redtrees of unwanted sexual conduct what would you do Redtrees?

Not sure if this has already been shared but do you have a link? I'd like to look into that more.

I’m not clear on what relevance an NHS training video has to my business which is not part of the NHS and has no contractual relationship with any part of it .

this is Tara Hewitt's training video, where Tara talks about fetishes and "diverse sexual appetites" in the context of trans cancer care training:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD3RfsVu73Q

@RedtreesRedtrees

I’m not clear on what relevance an NHS training video has to my business which is not part of the NHS and has no contractual relationship with any part of it .

I am citing Tara as an example of a leading expert on trans inclusion training. I am asking if your policy:

1. also includes cross dressers as per standard Stonewall and trans organisation training
2. if yes, how you would deal with a woman claiming sexual harassment as a result?

@RedtreesRedtrees

Are those posters advocating changing laws on the basis of their definitions of the term?

Strange that Redtrees appears to be avoiding this question.

Clearly if a definition changes then there are legal implications. If a term used in legislation no longer means what it meant at the date of the legislation then amendment is necessary.

And so, what amended definition would you propose? A definition upon which laws can very based (so a very vague or circular definition, I.e 'a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman' doesn't work, as it is self-referential and leads to the question 'so what are they identifying as ').

Someone mentioned earlier that credible science supports transgenderism. Perhaps that credible science could be used to provide a definition so that we understand what is now meant by the words 'men' and 'women'?

*Be based, not very based!

I have a DD just finished 2nd year. She didn't speak to me for nearly a week and said she'd never been more disappointed, and that she didn't think she'd ever look at me the same way again when I told her I agreed with JKR.
It was horrible and heartbreaking - she's bright, independent, was never one to conform for the sake of it all the way through high school. We have always had the most wonderful discussions and conversations about any and every subject and it's never been a problem before when we've disagreed.
But this is one thing she won't even discuss.
She has a close friend who is a transwoman, and can't separate her empathy for her experiences and struggles to open her mind to see the bigger picture.
I do understand that to a certain extent, and have been attempting to gradually and carefully show her things are not so black and white.
I'm trying to show her that the "trans umbrella" is huge and it doesn't just include people like her friend who very probably has genuine dysphoria, has had extensive therapy, been taking hormones, is on a waiting list for surgery and absolutely lives as, and looks like a woman.
She is beginning to come around to the idea that it's more nuanced but won't discuss it rationally.
She has told me that from the minute she arrived at her university EVERYTHING was geared to being inclusive to trans people. Every sign for groups and events says womxn instead of women, nearly all toilets are unisex, the feminist society she joined is open to any and everyone,
they all seem to introduce themselves with pronouns.
I suppose if it's that omnipresent it must be really difficult not to just accept that it is the way things are.

My DD is very logical, rational and non woke. She'd probably be considered very right wing by most teenagers. I think Uni will be interesting for her.

@RedtreesRedtrees

“The definition hasn't changed. A few men on Twitter saying that it has doesn't make it true.”

But it’s not just a few men on Twitter is it? If it it was it wouldn’t be such a dominant issue. People have different views.

Ok, I'll add a couple of kids at Uni. They don't get to change the definition. They really don't. There's a reason why in other countries elders are respected. We really do have the necessary experience; we really do know better. As those kids will learn as they grow up.

However, the change in language is definitely being led by men on Twatter. The kid's are just doing what they're told. They have been manipulated.

kids not kid's! ^

She has told me that from the minute she arrived at her university EVERYTHING was geared to being inclusive to trans people. Every sign for groups and events says womxn instead of women, nearly all toilets are unisex, the feminist society she joined is open to any and everyone,
they all seem to introduce themselves with pronouns.

Truly awful. It's pure indoctrination . My daughter went to Uni 2009-2013 and it wasn't even a thought in anyone's head back then, not so long ago at all. Students knew which ones were the girls and which ones were the boys.

My 2nd year university student son met up with his close friends last month after 4 months lockdown separation. Upon arriving, his best friend (female) announced to them all 'I want everyone to agree that we all hate J.K. Rowling'. They all did, including my son, who doesn't.

My 18yr old Dd starts at a woke Northern uni next month; she's outspokenly GC but also a Corbynite. The lefty societies that she'll undoubtedly join may not support her GC views (I may be wrong) so I'm worried about her tbh.

My DS has just finished his first year. university (science based) and rejects it all, fortunately he is very easy going and unlikely to stand-out. He knows about it all and agrees fully with the GC position. He has been pursued by a transwomen at university regardless of having a girlfriend and has found it difficult to deal with on many levels.
DS who is 16 is struggling with the concepts and although had some TWAW outbursts when he was younger, is coming to the GC position, he has been reading and thinking critically about it. He finished High School this year and again, the whole school district seems to be pretty GC!
I am an academic and worked in US and UK, unlike so many others, It seldom comes up where I am - most of the students I work with (PhD mainly) are GC and people accept whenever I correct the use of gender when they mean sex and vice versa.
I had a wonderful student last year who was taught a psychology module on sex and gender and it included some very dubious statements about gender/sex spectrum and the like. She challenged it and it was changed - so I have some hope for the USA!

Elders can be respected without unquestioning deference to their views purely on the basis of their age. I heard the same exasperated pleas from my parents and grandparents’ generation and let’s face it they made a complete sh*t show of it. I don’t think my generation has done particularly well (maybe we made the mistake of listening too much to our elders!), but when I listen to my DD and her friends I’m more optimistic (on a whole range of issues). As they said in the 60s “the times they are a-changin”.

@Babdoc

My autistic DD is completely gc. She gave a speech on Sunday at the rally in Edinburgh, about the risks to autistic girls of being sterilised and damaged by trans clinics like the Tavistock rushing to “affirm” them as trans and starting hormones without adequate assessment that their autism might be the real and only reason that they feel they don’t fit rigid gender stereotypes. She campaigns actively with ForWomenScotland for women’s rights to safe spaces, privacy and dignity, and the right to women only sports. As an old school radfem I’m hugely proud of her. She is not in the least transphobic (idiotic word) and would support any campaign for third spaces for them, or a separate sporting category at the Olympics for example. We both get angry when TRAs label any defence of women’s rights as some sort of hate fuelled attack on them. I can’t recall any feminist ever punching a TRA - but there have been convictions for the reverse.

Babdoc I was there on Sunday and your daughter's speech was incredibly powerful - she deserves huge congratulations for what she's doing.

Seems her mother taught her well!

@RedtreesRedtrees

Elders can be respected without unquestioning deference to their views purely on the basis of their age. I heard the same exasperated pleas from my parents and grandparents’ generation and let’s face it they made a complete sh*t show of it. I don’t think my generation has done particularly well (maybe we made the mistake of listening too much to our elders!), but when I listen to my DD and her friends I’m more optimistic (on a whole range of issues). As they said in the 60s “the times they are a-changin”.

I wouldn't say winning two world wars, establishing a welfare state, and a National Health Service is making a complete shit show of it. Those are the values that are still sustaining this country.

She has told me that from the minute she arrived at her university EVERYTHING was geared to being inclusive to trans people. Every sign for groups and events says womxn instead of women, nearly all toilets are unisex, the feminist society she joined is open to any and everyone, they all seem to introduce themselves with pronouns.

I've two friends who are lecturers and they say the same. There's very little provision for people with illnesses, problems at home, and disabilities, but they'll bend over backwards to accommodate gender identity issues.

I'm sorry your daughter reacted like that, hesmylobster. It must be very difficult.

Didn’t they do well! Also all those other armed conflicts around the world, successive debilitating financial crises, atrocious policies on human rights and catastrophic damage to our environment. Thanks but I won’t be taking lectures from those generations.

As they said in the 60s “the times they are a-changin”.

But not the sexes.
I too rebelled against my mother and my elders. But they were right in most things, as I learnt when I grew up.
Grandmothers especially can spot bs a mile away, and we see this right now in the twaw mantra.
Obviously age alone does not make you wise.
But you'll find some very wise and very clever older women on MN. I am in awe of many of them.

Not going to tell us you policy on sexual harassment then?

“ But you'll find some very wise and very clever older women on MN. I am in awe of many of them.”

Then you’re fated to make the same mistakes.

I’ve not had time to review the video of the NHS training that you seem slightly obsessed with. But I will try to and let you know my thoughts.

well its easy to accommodate gender issues isnt it? all you need to do is stick up a few signs, erase the word woman and you're done especially as by university age the majority of girls will have already been socialised to be nice

disability though thats much more difficult! that costs actual money and real thought to design spaces that accommodate people with wheelchairs or think about how you make lectures or tutorials work for people with sight or hearing loss. Why bother to do that when you can earn alll the wokey mcwoke points you need by slapping a gender neutral sign on all the loos?