For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

@RedtreesRedtrees

“ No, I definitely don’t agree that there’s a definition of women that includes men.”

There are definitions of woman that include men. You just don’t agree with them. There’s a key difference.

It’s not the definition I don’t agree with.

It’s the claim that that definition has any relation to the truth that I disagree with.

There are definitions of woman that include men.

Read that again to yourself, slowly.

@RedtreesRedtrees

“ Take it from someone with better perspective”

Perspective is when you have seen it all over the decades. I have. So I do factually have a better perspective than a 21 year-old in Uni.

I don't know how easy it is to come out as a lesbian at school these days, but my fourteen year old niece has two ex-girlfriends who now identify as boys. My sister reports that no one (at school) batted an eyelid when they came out as lesbians, but notes both have found increased social status from coming out as boys.

You could open up your Mumsnet inbox, screenshot the whole page (on my iPhone you hold down the right button and hit the control button), then open the picture up in edit, pick a pen and scribble out the identifying details. Voila!

But I’m derailing. I don’t have kids at uni, so this isn’t the topic at hand.

“ Thank goodness, though, we don't just get to make up definitions as we go along”

And yet that’s exactly what posters have been doing for the term ‘woke’ throughout this thread

@RedtreesRedtrees

“ Thank goodness, though, we don't just get to make up definitions as we go along”

And yet that’s exactly what posters have been doing for the term ‘woke’ throughout this thread

Are those posters advocating changing laws on the basis of their definitions of the term?

Casually I meant I don’t know how to screenshot and edit my inbox - I was responding to Sophocles on a separate point.

Anyway you’re right. The feminism board is for people with a particular GC perspective and anyone with a different view should go elsewhere. It’s important that you have a space to share your views free from question, criticism or challenge.

And yet that’s exactly what posters have been doing for the term ‘woke’ throughout this thread

I would agree with you if the word “woke” was a scientific or legal definition with a defined meaning, based on evidence and research. But it isn’t - it’s a mot du jour, and will change as time goes on, unlike the word “woman”.

Anyway you’re right. The feminism board is for people with a particular GC perspective and anyone with a different view should go elsewhere.

You and I both know that is not what I posted, but you do you.

My mid-teen thinks feminists are all a bit nuts but as a sportsman it took me about 5 seconds to get him to see that males competing "as" females is unfair.
In my experiences of working with a lot of 20-somethings, a lot of young people seem to be under the illusion that women should be considered as strong as men and don't need any protection, like it's impolite or bigoted to talk about our physical differences.
They are all very middle class and sheltered though.

@Babdoc

My autistic DD is completely gc. She gave a speech on Sunday at the rally in Edinburgh, about the risks to autistic girls of being sterilised and damaged by trans clinics like the Tavistock rushing to “affirm” them as trans and starting hormones without adequate assessment that their autism might be the real and only reason that they feel they don’t fit rigid gender stereotypes. She campaigns actively with ForWomenScotland for women’s rights to safe spaces, privacy and dignity, and the right to women only sports. As an old school radfem I’m hugely proud of her. She is not in the least transphobic (idiotic word) and would support any campaign for third spaces for them, or a separate sporting category at the Olympics for example. We both get angry when TRAs label any defence of women’s rights as some sort of hate fuelled attack on them. I can’t recall any feminist ever punching a TRA - but there have been convictions for the reverse.

Babdoc your daughter was bloody marvellous! I was there it was a brilliant very moving speech.

Yes my dd is fully onboard with this and other bullshit. Drives me potty.

Well that’s at least 6 other people who agree with me then grin.

Five

@DillonPanthersTexas

Sorry but what is TWAW?

Trans women are women

"Do you think maybe some lurkers would like to query aspects but don’t want the collective pile on that always follows?

"Anyway you’re right. The feminism board is for people with a particular GC perspective and anyone with a different view should go elsewhere. It’s important that you have a space to share your views free from question, criticism or challenge."

As people have already stated, everyone is welcome to air their views on this board. However, you say they don't want a collective pile on.

Your second quote doesn't make sense as you say we are right but no one has said that questioning, criticism or challenging is not welcome. People with GC views have a right to reply. But according to you, that's a pile on.

@DickKerrLadies

There are definitions of woman that include men.

Read that again to yourself, slowly.

None that make any sense though.

Are those posters advocating changing laws on the basis of their definitions of the term?

Strange that Redtrees appears to be avoiding this question.

“ DickKerrLadies
There are definitions of woman that include men.

Read that again to yourself, slowly.

None that make any sense though.”

Ah - now that’s a separate point. One is whether different definitions exist. The other is the validity of alternative definitions.

Are those posters advocating changing laws on the basis of their definitions of the term?

Strange that Redtrees appears to be avoiding this question.

Clearly if a definition changes then there are legal implications. If a term used in legislation no longer means what it meant at the date of the legislation then amendment is necessary.

I use woke sarcastically. They think they are woke based on the definition but they are not. If they were really were woke, they would care about women and children.

@DialSquare

I use woke sarcastically. They think they are woke based on the definition but they are not. If they were really were woke, they would care about women and children.

YY

Eldest thinks it's all obviously bollocks (snigger). ASD, very rigid in his thinking. "We're mammals, mammals don't change sex. But reptiles have parthenogenisus, which proves they're cooler anyway."

About-To-Start-Uni thinks TWAW and doesn't discuss it with me because it upsets him to be so at odds with me.

Youngest thinks whatever Harry Styles or Taylor Swift thinks. Or her mates. And "could you stop being so feminist, it's boring." She'll learn.

@RedtreesRedtrees

Are those posters advocating changing laws on the basis of their definitions of the term?

Strange that Redtrees appears to be avoiding this question.

Clearly if a definition changes then there are legal implications. If a term used in legislation no longer means what it meant at the date of the legislation then amendment is necessary.

The definition hasn't changed. A few men on Twitter saying that it has doesn't make it true. In the English-speaking world:

99.99% of the population use the word in its traditional sense.
99.99% of all the books in all the libraries use the word in its traditional sense.
99.99% of movies and songs use the word in its traditional sense.

Or have you heard of a movie called "Pretty Menstruator"?
A song called "You make me Feel like a Natural Uterus-Haver"?
A book called "Little Cervix-Havers"?

Everyone knows what the word woman means, and it doesn't include people with penises.