For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

Then you’re fated to make the same mistakes.

What mistakes? Those older women are the ones who sacrificed so much and took huge steps in gaining necessary women's rights. What mistakes did they make? It's men aided by indoctrinated young people now who are rolling those hard won rights back.

She has told me that from the minute she arrived at her university EVERYTHING was geared to being inclusive to trans people. Every sign for groups and events says womxn instead of women, nearly all toilets are unisex, the feminist society she joined is open to any and everyone,
they all seem to introduce themselves with pronouns.

Exactly the same for DS.

@YgritteSnow

Then you’re fated to make the same mistakes.

What mistakes? Those older women are the ones who sacrificed so much and took huge steps in gaining necessary women's rights. What mistakes did they make? It's men aided by indoctrinated young people now who are rolling those hard won rights back.

Yeah, was about to say the same. If you're talking about mistakes such as as wars, financial crashes, human rights abuses and damage to our environment, I would take a guess that it's largely men behind the colossal fuck ups in our world. The women didn't have the power to do this stuff. Because of sexism.

Re the definition of woman.

From today's Twitter:

"I am a transgender woman who has chosen to not transition my appearance."

It's a guy in Canada with a beard.

See above. We can’t just blame men. As we took a greater stake in society we must bear a fair share of the responsibility for the decisions taken. We could debate the extent of that share but it would be further off thread. The point is that older generations made a hash of it. Our children might not.

DC started off woke, then researched, spoke with others of varying viewpoints, read a wide range of literature and ended up being GC. Has several GNC friends who agree the ideology is bollocks, but some were encouraged to go down the medical route initially. DC believes in equal rights for all and would defend anyone's rights being removed. I actually think once they research, like everyone, the arguments don't add up. No debate has proved powerful, but I am hopeful the tide is turning.

I’ve not had time to review the video of the NHS training that you seem slightly obsessed with. But I will try to and let you know my thoughts.

As you threatened to sack anyone who was disinclined to put pronouns in their email in an earlier thread, then it's interesting for posters to find out more about your people management approach, specifically in regards to the scenario I've described and illustrated by Tara, a well known trainer.

It's really useful for readers of the thread to understand the employment conditions adopters of trans training such as yourself expect people to accept.

I would think you already know trans is inclusive of cross dressers as you were so adamant you would have no dissent in your organisation so you must surely be 100% clear from an equality impact assessment? You would have, during that impact assessment, explored the range of identities being included?

@CasuallyMasculine I had the same question on a job application form this morning.
It had both what is your gender and what is your gender identity. Didn't ask for sex at all.

Fortunately it was optional and I didn't answer any of the page.

I think we’re crossing over into an entirely different thread there Port and I don’t see much point in repeating it as people can easily review that thread itself.

@Babdoc

My autistic DD is completely gc. She gave a speech on Sunday at the rally in Edinburgh, about the risks to autistic girls of being sterilised and damaged by trans clinics like the Tavistock rushing to “affirm” them as trans and starting hormones without adequate assessment that their autism might be the real and only reason that they feel they don’t fit rigid gender stereotypes. She campaigns actively with ForWomenScotland for women’s rights to safe spaces, privacy and dignity, and the right to women only sports. As an old school radfem I’m hugely proud of her. She is not in the least transphobic (idiotic word) and would support any campaign for third spaces for them, or a separate sporting category at the Olympics for example. We both get angry when TRAs label any defence of women’s rights as some sort of hate fuelled attack on them. I can’t recall any feminist ever punching a TRA - but there have been convictions for the reverse.

I think I've read the text of your daughter's speech on twitter.

It was amazing. From one autistic woman to another, please pass on my thanks and appreciation for her bravery.

Babdoc I am also an autistic woman and I have so much respect for your daughter and her brilliant speech. I totally understand why some people with autism identify as trans. I believe that they should be treated with kindness and I did once think all on this board were mean. I know a girl who has detransitioned and I think that the fertility aspect is just awful. Society thinks that if you have autism you shouldn’t be a mum and that is why this is being allowed to happen.

You seem very reluctant to explain your policy Redtrees.

@RedtreesRedtrees

I’ve not had time to review the video of the NHS training that you seem slightly obsessed with. But I will try to and let you know my thoughts.

You don't me and you have no idea what mistakes I'm "fated to make". Once the lawsuits start rolling in you'll understand just who was making the mistakes.

I think it is very relevant to this thread Redtrees, you have turned up to explain what old and out of date opinions and values we have here and how this generation are more accepting.

You would enforce that acceptance for young and old alike at work by disciplinary action too, and I imagine you would expect university to be the same. So young female students would not be permitted to exclude men cross dressing for sexual purposes from any single sex accommodation and could never report this as unwanted sexual conduct without threat's of sanctions for doing so.

This is the "values" you are talking about?

I am a PhD student at a university. My experience is that the staff are very TWAW and the undergraduates are more questioning.

Oh no. I'm staff in an arts department. I am very questioning as are a great many of my colleagues. However transactivist have made life extremely difficult for lecturers who they declare to be 'transphobic'. It's very chilling, but the end result is that we have to keep very quiet.

I'd say that generally - where staff don't use pronouns on email signoffs and/or Twitter they are actually saying they don't believe. That's the great majority of us, but silence is very difficult to notice. Still - if you try to talk to a prof who is not using pronouns, you will probably have a very interesting conversation and discover a lot of common ground

Lama wrong quote. But as I’ve repeated many times my business is fully compliant and I have an outstanding (female) GC. We’re not afraid of any lawsuits.

I agree miffin. I work in HR in academia and most of us don't agree either, and yes, pronouns are a good indication.

It's very well understood that the tiny number of aggressive activists are the tail wagging the dog.

You said on the other thread that you would discriminate. That's not "fully compliant". Please read the civil service thread I posted where a legal opinion is sought on the matter of allowing cross dressing males to access female spaces.

* I can’t discuss any trans/non binary subjects with her*

This is what gets me. University is meant to open the mind to debate but there is such a blind commitment by so many students these days.

My 14 year old daughter drank the koolaid. We can't talk about anything in this arena. She thinks jk rowling is awful (I do ask me to locate the awful things and show them to me), she can't accept that this much hype is really created from nothing.
My 17 year old sports son fan thinks it's terrible that tw can compete in women's sports as it offends his sense of fairness but if I say anything else he rolls his eyes and leaves the room.

'Womxn' is utter insanity. How are you even supposed to pronounce it? 'Wim-mixin'?! Are the 'woke' in France embracing 'fxmme', or the Germans adopting 'Frxu'? I bet they're not.

I will always call women 'women' -- not 'womxn', not cervix-havers or menstruators or any of this other crap. Why should we all start mangling the language to accommodate a bunch of blue-haired 15-year-olds who suddenly think they know everything? I agree with the poster who said that in 20 years we will look back and see this as a time of utter insanity.

@Siablue

*Babdoc* I am also an autistic woman and I have so much respect for your daughter and her brilliant speech. I totally understand why some people with autism identify as trans. I believe that they should be treated with kindness and I did once think all on this board were mean. I know a girl who has detransitioned and I think that the fertility aspect is just awful. Society thinks that if you have autism you shouldn’t be a mum and that is why this is being allowed to happen.

Exactly.

It's eugenics by the backdoor and autistic women are being told they're unkind to object. That we're discriminatory.

Port thanks for providing the link. I think the issue for a lot of people is they hear trans and think gender dysphoria, not of the whole umbrella (something I've definitely been guilty of in the past). Also younger people are probably more likely to know someone who is trans through school/uni etc. I know I've read some articles that suggest some scientific bases of transgender (although not yet confirmed I think). I absolutely disagree with men who dress in women's clothes for sexual gratification being able to use women's toilets.
I finished uni 12 years ago so before all this became popular at university I think 🤷‍♀️
Working education I've come across one child(yr2/3) who I believed possibly had dysphoria, from yr R whenever the class was split into boys and girls he always joined the girls group (each time staff would offer for him to join the other boys and he would decline) he used the boys toilets but only when there were no other children in there. His parents neither encouraged nor discouraged but rather allowed him to be himself and never suggested he was a girl. I've not known or heard of him in years so I'm not sure on the outcome.
My own son (now 7) from about 2 talked about growing up to be a girl and did God make him wrong, I handled that by saying it didn't matter girl or boy he could be/do what he wants, he's always liked pink and 'girls' things so I think it's more that he's been exposed to a sexist society (and certain in laws had issues with his long hair and love of pink and glitter), when he was about 6 he verbalised he wanted a womb to be a mum. I think explaining he can never have a womb but men help make babies too and constantly encouraging him to be who he is and like what he likes has helped him understand sex and gender and in nearly two years he's not mentioned it again, I worry about if other people had a similar child they'd have jumped on it and he'd have been referred to gender identity clinic or something.

“ Why should we all start mangling the language to accommodate a bunch of blue-haired 15-year-olds who suddenly think they know everything?”

And there it is in a nutshell.

@wifflewafflebiscuit

My 14 year old daughter drank the koolaid. We can't talk about anything in this arena. She thinks jk rowling is awful (I do ask me to locate the awful things and show them to me), she can't accept that this much hype is really created from nothing. My 17 year old sports son fan thinks it's terrible that tw can compete in women's sports as it offends his sense of fairness but if I say anything else he rolls his eyes and leaves the room.

I think a fair few boys and men - even if they aren't outright misogynists who enjoy using this issue to beat on women while looking progressive - dislike the idea that they are a danger to girls and women, that they are the ones committing the vast majority of violent and sexual crime, that they have to be safeguarded against whether they are criminals or not. It makes them uncomfortable. In fact, girls dislike the idea too, even though on some level we know it.

I remember being about seven and my mum parroting the line that if I ever got lost I should find "a kind lady" to help me. My sister make the sarcastic comment that Myra Hindley or Rose West would be good ones, and we both laughed at my mum for her silly sexism, when obviously she was completely right, and I apologise to her with hindsight.