If we can't define what a woman is, how can we organise politically? Suzanne Moore in the Guardian!!

[stumbledin]

Well - have the wheels turned a bit at the Guardian or what???

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/03/define-what-a-woman-is-organise-politically-suzanne-moore

Well perhaps I have been here longer or maybe I'm fed up "being kind", but I actually do not give two flying figs about the plight of transwomen, unlike Suzanne, who writes that she does.

TRA's have started a war with women, and I, for one, will never be on their side in this, or probably any, debate.

So for me, Suzanne is still appeasing, and if this is progress, The Guardian can forget me ever returning to the fold.

His staff have probably filed you under Bigot

They can file me under ex-member if they go on as they are.

Ed Davey is a TWAW man and fully on board with the gender woo.

Here he is talking about his (and the Lib Dems') belief in TWAW.

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/lib-dems-support-trans-rights/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3984624-Libdem-hopefuls-on-LBC-02-08-20-LBC

Mimmymum is rage reading Mumsnet still and seems very het up about this article.

That Prosecco Stormfront are practically wetting themselves in delight at her “stunning” and “brave” soapbox ramblings, shitting on trans people (yet again) with made-up nonsense, wrapped in ‘oh so polite’ privileged women-speak.

Prosecco stormfront? It should be the gin stormfront, surely.

'If we can't define what a woman is,...'

...we can't even describe reality and make sense of it. No seriously, if we honestly didn't all know what a woman is, we'd have massively regressed, unable to understand how to prevent pregnancy, how to distinguish a serious desease from a normal bodily function...

The only reason that life goes on, without grand confusion about what you have to do to start a family and whatnot, the only reason for that is that in their heart of hearts everybody and their dog know what a woman is.

It is outright ridiculous.

Owen Jones is getting very upset about the response to his Guardian Masterclass. He thinks the only reason anyone could not like him is homophobia not the fact he is actually a misogynist.
mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1290776219009646592

Hmm, the main reason I would avoid an OJ master class is that I don't think he's a very good writer.

@WeeBisom

Prosecco stormfront? It should be the gin stormfront, surely.

Obviously. But she thinks she's very clever for calling us that and we all know that admitting you might have been wrong about something is very frowned upon and you must never do it.

But once again, thanks to our twitter monitors for the free advertising!

"Prosecco stormfront"

It really, really pains them that they can't use the word "feminazi" anymore, doesn't it?

I'm so tired of the constant, disingenuous attempts to equate gender critical women with fascists. From people who are almost totally ignorant of the things women actually suffered under fascist regimes. Bet you'd get blank looks if you mentioned Ravensbruck to half of them. I wish they would - to borrow their own favourite phrase - educate themselves.

It really, really pains them that they can't use the word "feminazi" anymore, doesn't it?

Haha yes, this is it, isn't it?

[quote Siablue]Owen Jones is getting very upset about the response to his Guardian Masterclass. He thinks the only reason anyone could not like him is homophobia not the fact he is actually a misogynist.
mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1290776219009646592[/quote]
Just scrolled through that thread. The only people supporting him for his wonderful allyship are men and transwomen. Meanwhile both men and women are speaking against him, including quite a few lesbians. Remember, it's not just Owen's misogyny people can't stand - it's also his blatant hypocrisy. He thinks nothing of lecturing lesbians about the need to validate transwomen via our vaginas, while he freely admits he himself wouldn't be willing to get up close and personal with anything apart from a penis.

Homophobia? Get a grip, Owen.

I'm thinking this article is the Grauniad going into appeasement mode after they got such a pasting on Twitter by women fed up with its pro trans stance. Still bloody glad to see it though.

I came here to post precisely this. What's the betting Beaumont-Thomas got a rude awakening when he appealed for donations and found himself bombarded with responses from women, all telling him in no uncertain times they they've abandoned the Graun in droves.

Pure damage limitation, and a too-little-to-late gesture toward presenting any kind of balanced debate. Moore's head was already above the parapet so I guess they felt they had nothing to lose by using her to poke the bear in an attempt to appease their female readership.

As for the article itself: beautifully succinct and nuanced, and I really liked the point that feminism IS gender critical. It's what feminism does. Also that by definition many of us have always been gender non-conforming whether this shows in our outward appearance or not.

Top work. Now waiting in weary resignation for the predicable, boring, tedium of the backlash, complete with bellicose language and threats. Brace those floodgates.

[quote stumbledin]Well - have the wheels turned a bit at the Guardian or what???

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/03/define-what-a-woman-is-organise-politically-suzanne-moore[/quote]
Was this in the actual newspaper yesterday, or is it just online?

@AntsInPenzance

Just surfing the internet and this quote from 2015 popped up from Catherine Mackinnon:

"I always thought I don’t care how someone becomes a woman or a man; it does not matter to me. It is just part of their specificity, their uniqueness, like everyone else’s. Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I’m concerned, is a woman."

Kind of surprised a 'radfem' like MacKinnon would hold that view, does anyone know if Catherine still holds this position? Has she talked about the trans issue more recently?

It is surprising.

Dworkin, her onetime collaborator, saw 'penis' and 'man' as interchangeable.

And the 'male transvestite' as the essence of society's false construct of femininity.

On the actual Guardian masterclass thread he was getting rationed. I think when you turn people against the group you are meant to be an ally for you may not be the best person to lead a masterclass in persuasive writing.

I think that Suzanne is wanted to write this piece and the Guardian are finally letting her. I hope she has some support from management after the bullying she has experienced.

I'd go to an OJ masterclass just to ask him how he suggests his tutees go about researching and writing on controversial topics.

And then ask for my money back.

This article has now disappeared completely from the Opinion homepage and can only be found if you seek out Suzanne Moore specifically. This is despite there being articles that are older than this, which was published on Monday. There are articles that are more than a month old still here, but not Suzanne’s.

www.theguardian.com/uk/commentisfree

Fuck off, Guardian.

Fuck off, Guardian.

The Guardian will soon be fucking off whether it wants to or not, I suspect.

Yes it does seem to have disappeared already. I spotted two Owen Jones pieces though - both over a week old.

I note without comment that a number of the staff who signed that letter seemed to work on the tech side.

Interestingly, I notice that the Guardian has switched from appealing for donations, to keep it open access, to encouraging readers to sign up for a Premium service. Presumably this is (very) belated recognition that they will only survive with a paywall?

A paywall only works if there are subscribers willing to pay. How many of little OJ's TRA Twitter mob are going to be putting their money where their mouth is, I wonder? .

Maybe someone at the Guardian is finally realising that alienating 50% of the UK population, in order to appease a bunch of blue-haired American activitists who will never earn it a penny, is not an A1 business strategy? Clicks are all well and good if they are your only source of income (via advertising), but not if the clickbait articles lose you subscribers.

@MrsNoah2020 it seems to still be asking for a donation so they must be really short of cash.

How will this work - they'll have to have really tempting reporting pieces to win over 'we've had it for free, why should we pay' lot but at the same time they'll need to keep people coming to the free pages in order to tempt them to pay?

Students don't commit to anything which is why the free pages in the first place

@NotBadConsidering

This article has now disappeared completely from the Opinion homepage and can only be found if you seek out Suzanne Moore specifically. This is despite there being articles that are older than this, which was published on Monday. There are articles that are more than a month old still here, but not Suzanne’s.

www.theguardian.com/uk/commentisfree

Fuck off, Guardian.

Earlier this morning I accessed it from the 'Women' submenu of 'Lifestyle'(!)

However it's now gone even there. Only listed if you click on the small "All stories" button.

The 'I forgot how to cry as a man' piece is still there, though, on the second row - its main parent genre being "Australian Lifestyle". Three weeks later.

It is there if you follow the direct link in the OP.