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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Today’s witch burning - Rosie Duffield MP

656 replies

Kit19 · 01/08/2020 15:50

has had to lock down her Twitter account after being inundated with hate for saying women have cervix’s

The TRA are now spamming labour with complaints about her transphobia & demands she is sacked

I’m planning to email my support fir her copying in Keir Starmer

(And yes of course LOJ is involved!)

OP posts:
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CLCB07 · 05/08/2020 18:50

She has started to get comments on her twitter account.

teawamutu · 05/08/2020 19:23

Yup. Re-education needed, stat.

Her predecessor did nothing but bang on about trans rights, she likes one tweet and Labour are horrible transphobes. Hope the party are taking note.

ThePurported · 05/08/2020 19:47

I'm sure GLAAD will step in shortly with one of their generous (re-)education packages.
Dawn Butler did well out of them.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 05/08/2020 20:28

Come on, Marsha!

DianasLasso · 05/08/2020 22:43

This feels like the thread for this (came across it in a DT article on the need for comedy to be genuinely subversive rather than tamely parroting whatever woke ideology is in vogue):
John Cleese on extremism

Collidascope · 06/08/2020 06:56

labourlist.org/2020/08/trans-people-must-be-heard-by-the-labour-party/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Written by a trans man.

I've several issues with it.

"it paints trans women as ridiculous individuals wanting to be centred in discussions that don’t affect them."

That's because women have been told time and time again by trans women that we mustn't discuss our biology when discussing women's issues. And why no "people with prostates" jargon?

"Duffield’s comments have real-world consequences in terms of healthcare. Robert Eads, a trans man from Georgia, USA, died of ovarian cancer in 1999 because gynaecologists refused to treat him due to his transition. More than 20 different doctors would not refer him for treatment, and some instead opted to refer him to psychiatrists."

This is tragic but the fact that the only example that can be found was in Georgia, USA, and happened over 20 years before Duffield made her comments is pretty poor proof. If anything being rebuffed by doctors and told that your pain must be in your head is a sign that there doctors still saw Robert as female.

"In the UK, when transgender people get a new NHS number to reflect their true gender, there is currently no way for the system to acknowledge their transition. This means that trans women receive reminders for smear tests but trans men, who may have not yet had any form of genital reconstruction surgery, or who do not believe such procedures to be a part of their transition, do not receive those reminders"

If this is true, it seems like it would be worth focussing efforts on getting this changed. So much of the "people with a cervix" stuff is coming on twitter that it again omits a huge portion of the population.

"I have seen several friends tweeting that they intend to leave Labour as they cannot support a party that does not take an unequivocal stance in favour of the inclusion of transgender people in all aspects of life"

What aspects of life are you being excluded from?

Kit19 · 06/08/2020 07:25

Interesting that even penis news have realised that maybe they ought to feature some TM now & then so they don’t look 100% misogynistic

Article’s still hyperbolic bollocks though!

OP posts:
mcduffy · 06/08/2020 07:28

Not seen this posted from the Times yet, apologies if duplicated

Justin Welby defends Rosie Duffield, MP accused of transphobia over cervix tweet

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d77912f6-d74b-11ea-8f95-6d813022b2d7?shareToken=c3e05a5c05a08fc866ed829d6766338f

PearPickingPorky · 06/08/2020 08:01

I would say the TRAs come almost 100% from the hard left, and they are flippin radged! This is why they are allowed free reign, they are like naughty kids threatening the peace and quiet of the adult world where debate and reason should be the answer, not tantrums.

I saw this short thread on twitter last night from an academic, which absolutely sums up Momentum, and the witch burning of Labour women by them, for me:

twitter.com/UmbertoKerouac/status/1291092610300424192?s=19

Working with young adults, you quickly realise that they think anything that isn't "fair" is right wing - and anything that is "fair" is left wing. Things that are "fair" are inclusive, don't encroach on their "rights" and don't take anything from them.

So - to them - some brands are "good" because they signal inclusivity (fairness). But universities can be bad because they don't give them what they believe they are paying for (unfair).

These are, in fact, structurally capitalist views that belong more properly to right-wing, free market thinking, but young people often can't make that distinction - and see the world how it interacts specifically with them, rather than how it operates within the wider system.

It's 100% en-pointe, isn't it?

PearPickingPorky · 06/08/2020 08:04

Pleased to see Marsha De Cordova causing a minor ripple (and getting the predictable pile-on). We need more people to experience this, sadly. I look forward to the Momentum brats telling her she's an oppressor of straight, white, middle-class men.

CLCB07 · 06/08/2020 09:28

It does seem to be a lot of young men that are very noisy towards Rosie Duffield on Twitter. What is the structure of Momentum are they just aligned with Labour or do they provide representation, funding etc? I could look it up I guess!

CharlieParley · 06/08/2020 11:04

"In the UK, when transgender people get a new NHS number to reflect their true gender, there is currently no way for the system to acknowledge their transition. This means that trans women receive reminders for smear tests but trans men, who may have not yet had any form of genital reconstruction surgery, or who do not believe such procedures to be a part of their transition, do not receive those reminders"

Well. I'm just stunned at that. It's not the NHS that gives you a new number willy nilly. It's the individual asking for a new number. And it's not the NHS choosing not to acknowledge your transition. That was a TRA demand.

And of course the NHS is not about woolly carpets or shiny shoes or flashy cars or great music where your sex ought to be irrelevant to the service you receive. The NHS is about medical issues where your sex matters very much. Both in terms of diagnosis and treatment.

To first campaign to get the NHS to abandon recording sex but record gender instead, to insist that this change must not be reflected in the new patient record and then to complain that this results in females who tell the NHS their gender is male not getting called for smear tests which are sent only to female patients is just ...

What is going on here? I get everything I demand - usually with threats of serious consequences and accusations of transphobia if it doesn't happen - but I've now realised what I wanted is actually bad for me. So I'm blaming you for giving it to me.

In this scenario, the NHS is screwed either way. They've been recording gender not sex for years now, they let you change your gender marker. Their system - as demanded by TRAs - doesn't record both sex and gender and - as demanded by TRAs - doesn't alter your existing record but issues you a completely new patient record. So the NHS not only treats you as the gender you've told them you are, but also treats you as if you have always been that gender. Nobody knows you changed it, because TRAs insisted on that.

Which we're now being told is bad for these patients. Well yes, because medicine is about sexed bodies and even mental health issues differ between the sexes. This outcome is exactly as predicted by those of us opposed to the madness of recording gender and not sex for health purposes.

But we were told to go "concern trolling" to someone who cared, our transphobia was obviously motivating us to deny trans people their right to be their true selves. On NHS patient records. We called it reality phobic and dangerous. And here we are.

I await the next article laying out how transphobic feminists have caused this to happen.

Cwenthryth · 06/08/2020 11:54

Just saw that Labour Women’s Network (who invite all labour members who “self-define as women“ to join, so, ironically, exclude those of us who do not subscribe to sex self-identification) tweeted in support of Rosie Duffield yesterday.
twitter.com/labourwomensnet/status/1290730399501516800?s=21

As expected lots of shock horror transphobia accusations for them standing up against misogyny.

Wheels really are coming off aren’t they.

Today’s witch burning - Rosie Duffield MP
Packingsoapandwater · 06/08/2020 11:55

@FlippinFumin

I think a lot of the pile ons of Rosie JK and the Bishop, is because all three have made negative comments about Jeremy Corbyn. They were already targets of the hard left, Momentum.

As a former trade union activist and Labour Party activist, I am probably very left, but even I could see that JC was not to the taste of most of the country. Labour thought they had read the country and they were wrong. They are also wrong on this, but have doubled down. They need to listen and stop trying to get JC for leader again and attacking anyone who has ever disagreed with him. Listening to Momentum members, they think they own the MPs they door knocked to support. They cannot see anything past hard left, hence the situation where they are calling for the expulsion of life long party activists. There is no nuance with them.

I am heavily involved with local politics and governance, and today's "activists" alienation from everyday reality is a fact of life for my colleagues and me.

There's no upside to it at all on a local level; it just wastes an extraordinary amount of time and energy that could create tremendous change on the ground if it was directed to the issues that need attention.

But those issues are 1) very unexciting, 2) tend to involve a bit of graft and 3) require you to be actually plugged into your local community and constituents -- you've got to actually talk to real people, instead of just assuming you know what they want.

And this is the problem: these activists don't actually know what people actually think. They assume twitter is the democratic voice.

The whole phenomenon is just going to destroy the Labour and LibDem parties; indeed, it's already happening. I know a number of of excellent representatives who are already being sacrificed on the Altar of Woke, and the whole thing is nowhere near played out yet.

And it just leaves more and more work for the rest of us. It's getting to the point where we are just not going to be able to provide the level of scrutiny required.

And it will leave the Conservatives, who are not known in my area for being very engaged, with all the pies despite doing pretty much bugger all, when really what we need to do is force those Tories to up their game massively.

FloralBunting · 06/08/2020 12:22

My woman-centred heart is very soft towards John Cleese indeed. Brilliant.

Rubidium · 06/08/2020 12:23

ICYMI, following on from The Archbishop's tweet has been a big old row on Twitter between Grace Petrie and Jean Hatchet.

Starting here:
twitter.com/gracepetrie/status/1290709923047845889
Continuing here:
twitter.com/gracepetrie/status/1291004637919825921
and here:
twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/1291032740490612738

I may be biased, but I don't think Grace is winning.

Kantastic · 06/08/2020 12:37

I think the next logical step is going to be to demand that smear letters are no longer issued. Perhaps there will be an intermediate step of mixing up smear testing with some kind of transgender treatment - demanding screening for transwomen who've had the penile inversion surgery might be a go-to (never mind that the evidence wouldn't support that demand, it's never stopped the TRAs before.) Perhaps a concerted push for transwomen to conduct smear tests. Ultimately if the pattern plays out to its completion the cervical cancer screening programme will be dismantled.

It will be a while before TRAs have that much political capital - hopefully it will never happen - but this is the pattern. Fuck up women's groups/organisations/services with demands of "inclusivity." Create bureaucratic confusion and infighting with demands about language and redirect attention towards trans issues. Move on to redirecting financial resources towards trans issues. Eventually, get the womens' group/organisation/service dismantled.

Cervical cancer screening is nationwide service and very well established so it will take a while for the full pattern to play out, but if people keep going along with this bullshit, it will happen.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 12:47

I am heavily involved with local politics and governance, and today's "activists" alienation from everyday reality is a fact of life for my colleagues and me.

There's no upside to it at all on a local level; it just wastes an extraordinary amount of time and energy that could create tremendous change on the ground if it was directed to the issues that need attention.

But those issues are 1) very unexciting, 2) tend to involve a bit of graft and 3) require you to be actually plugged into your local community and constituents -- you've got to actually talk to real people, instead of just assuming you know what they want.

And this is the problem: these activists don't actually know what people actually think. They assume twitter is the democratic voice.

@Packingsoapandwater student politics was like this. Most of us eyerolled and ignored it, but it was galling because these brats were the ones who represented us, and controlled the student budgets. A couple of reasonable people tried to get involved, but mostly it was extremists and careerists (who wanted jobs in Parliament or major think tanks, and saw student politics as a stepping stone). They never did anything for their peers. They were always earnestly debating world and national events, and 'what message we are sending'. The suggestion that there were actual women, BAME and disabled students whose lives they could tangibly improve if they lost some of the narcissism bemused them.

Those people are now directing the progressive parties instead, as in the past, of growing up and recognising that effective politics is dull and incremental and needs to serve the will, as well as the best interests, of the public. I'm not sure why, or how, that's happened. The refusal to accept that good people can disagree with you is new, in my lifetime at least.

The arrogance is especially breathtaking. Behind the cries to, "educate yourself" is the snobbish determination that these young middle-class twits know best. So much for their urgent insistence that lived experience is all. Only the right kind of lived experience, it seems. Working class northerners just need to accept what they're told. Duffield's, of being a VAWG survivor, doesn't count. And I've seen so many sneers aimed at Carrie Symonds - a survivor of John Warboys, who put him behind bars at the age of 20 and has helped ensure he stayed there when the probation service fucked up and were about to free him. What the hell have these Twitterati done to protect other women, let alone suffered themselves, equivalent to her? But natch she votes the wrong way, and thinks the wrong way. So her lived experience can't count.

Their arrogance is making both left leaning parties genuinely unelectable. I can't vote for parties that honestly seem to hate women, even as they insist they are feminist, and to despise working class people, even as they insist they are socialists. Anti-terrorist activity focusing on Muslim communities was calmly ccepted - whereas investigating paedophile gangs preying on working class girls? Beyond the pale. Couldn't be because the former affected the middle classes in airports and city streets, whereas the latter affected poor girls in Northern communities at all, could it? Surely not. And the unthinking implicit racism towards BAME people who disagree is just eyewatering - there's a fairly clear note of anger at the ingratitude that screams of a white saviour entitlement, isn't there, when Priti Patel or Sajid Javid or Terry Crews are under attack.

The collapse of the NHS, and state education, and the probation service, and working class pay and conditions alongside the gig economy - those are what affect most people. The rising tide of misogyny affects half the population. Funding elder care is going to be a massive issue as the Boomers reach extreme old age, and that's pretty well ignored - boring, as an issue. The SEN crisis has left thousands of disabled children out of school - in many cases, no suitable schools exist and parents are told as much, so the state is failing in the most basic legal responsibility. And most people don't even know it is happening. And looming over all of this, the climate emergency is threatening to make the very world we all share genuinely uninhabitable before the turn of the century. Meanwhile, the two parties positioning themselves as being for the many, not the few, are arguing about the linguistics of identity politics, and how best to display blind tribal loyalty to the fallen Great Leader. It's extraordinary.

I admire you for staying and fighting, and for the sake of our democracy I hope you succeed, but I wouldn't personally have either stomach or energy for dealing with them.

littlbrowndog · 06/08/2020 12:54

Great post wellbehaved

Needmoresleep · 06/08/2020 13:03

One odd aspect is that young Labour activists seem to do a lot of the election door knocking. They must therefore hear what people are saying.

What do they do? Just ignore them? Decide they are "bad", "wrong", "phobic" or "boomers" so not worth of a view?

Carrie Symonds, in contrast, went up north and helped younger candidates try to win previously unwinnable seats. I assume they did this by listening, and I assume, to the extent she has any influence over Boris, her influence is informed by what she learnt on the doorsteps.

Corbyn in contrast, though I accept this may biased by media reporting, held big rallies in University Cities like Bristol.

FloralBunting · 06/08/2020 13:10

I suspect, when you listen to eager young actvists like Grace Petrie, for example, that they believe canvassing is not for the purpose of finding out what is important to people, or to persuade those potential voters that you are the party they should support, but to identify who is in your tribe and who is unimportant.

How else can you possibly have had the ridiculous spectacle of political campaigners in the last election telling people outright not to vote for them if they had the wrong sort of opinion?

I think it must be connected to guilt by association fallacies, whereby being connected to those one disagrees with, even by having them vote your party into power, is something to be avoided. I suppose they must see voting not just from the perspective of getting a mandate, but as reflecting on the party, meaning the pure motives of the party are now connected to the perceived evils of the electorate who gave them their vote.

Collidascope · 06/08/2020 13:56

www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/i4nggh/why_have_there_been_no_consequences_for_the

Thread showing beautifully why Labour aren't in power. It seems to be mostly men, of course.

Highlights include

In response to someone citing the recent YouGov poll where the public was less than thrilled about self id: "The Labour Party should be setting the standards for civil and human rights. Our support for trans rights, or any other rights for that matter, shouldn't depend on the changing tides of public opinion."

"Tbh, where appropriate, sports shouldn’t be segregated via gender, but other things like weight." and "I agree with this, I think it's mad that we have as much gender segregation as it is. The argument tends to centre around the athletic sports where it's assumed men would otherwise dominate."

"I just can't imagine ever being offended if they had used an "individuals with a prostate" in an article. It is such an unbelievably minor thing to find offensive and claim to be being marginalised or bullied as a result. Very big snowflake energy."

Packingsoapandwater · 06/08/2020 14:03

Wellbehaved,

I think what is going to happen is that you will see a growth in the independence movement among local established representatives. Aside from that, there is a very definite schism growing between people who "do" governance and people who "do" politics.

The two concepts are almost divorced now. What is understood by "politics" these days actually has very little to do with the process of good governance, and seems to be entirely about how an individual perceives and defines themselves against others. It's a kind of New Politics, I suppose: one that has bugger all to do with actually getting real life stuff fixed.

Identity politics goes way further than I originally supposed a few years ago. It's not so much that politics has become about identity, but also that someone's understanding of their own identity has become about their political stance (about, naturally, identity, which has become their understanding of politics, which dictates their identity). So what we have is a devouring ouroboros of psychological mindfuckery over definitions of the self that has pulled actual real life governance into the mincer.

It's a form of pathological narcissism where these individuals are condemnned to forever gaze at their own shifting reflections, but governance and democracy, by default, is about looking beyond the self.

On a practical basis, us governance bods are trying desperately to recruit people who will actually get some bloody work done so shit can get fixed. In reality, there's not a lot of politics involved in many governmental issues ... and this may very well be the problem in some respects. People are fomenting "politics" in other zones in order to create a battleground that really doesn't exist outside of some key issues.

As an example, you can't really take a specifically left or right wing (or activist) perspective to the scrutiny of a waste disposal contract. But government is full of that kind of practical issue.

Rubidium · 06/08/2020 14:03

Wellbehaved and Packing are both spot on. In all their pious sanctimony, The Woke haven’t realised that electoral politics is an adversarial contest and as such it involves things like strategy and tactics. One of the first questions anybody involved in any adversarial contest should ask is ‘What would my opponent least like me to do?’ The Tories get this totally. In recent years, Labour in particular seem to be doing exactly what the Tories would most like them to do.

I heard some speculation recently that the government are going to sit on the GRA report until just before the next general election, knowing full well the ructions its release will cause Labour. This may or may not come to pass, but if they are not careful Labour will just keep on walking into traps set by the Tories. It’s early days but I’m hoping Starmer’s team realise this in a way that Corbyn’s people just didn’t.

On the grassroots activists front: this story may or may not be true, but it illustrates Labour middle class wokeness very well. During the 2017 Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election, the local Labour Party's election leaflets featured the English flag, presumably because the local CLP knew this would play well with the voters. Apparently a group of students drove over from Cambridge to help out with the campaign, but upon seeing the flag on the leaflets they promptly turned around and went straight back again. Although Labour won this by-election, since December all three Stoke on Trent constituencies are now Tory for the first time since at least the 1950s.

Packingsoapandwater · 06/08/2020 14:12

As an afterthought, the difference, I reckon, can be summed up like this: where once the political arena was about "I support X", it now seems to be about "I am someone who supports X."

So if you disagree with X today, you are no longer disagreeing about a political position, you are disagreeing with that person's sense of self.

You are, in short, erasing them.

Once you realise this is the state of play with many political activists, all the stuff they say about "denying people's right to exist" suddenly makes sense.

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