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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Today’s witch burning - Rosie Duffield MP

656 replies

Kit19 · 01/08/2020 15:50

has had to lock down her Twitter account after being inundated with hate for saying women have cervix’s

The TRA are now spamming labour with complaints about her transphobia & demands she is sacked

I’m planning to email my support fir her copying in Keir Starmer

(And yes of course LOJ is involved!)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
FloralBunting · 06/08/2020 14:17

Yy. The death of objectivity, in essence.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 15:31

@Collidascope

www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/i4nggh/why_have_there_been_no_consequences_for_the

Thread showing beautifully why Labour aren't in power. It seems to be mostly men, of course.

Highlights include

In response to someone citing the recent YouGov poll where the public was less than thrilled about self id: "The Labour Party should be setting the standards for civil and human rights. Our support for trans rights, or any other rights for that matter, shouldn't depend on the changing tides of public opinion."

"Tbh, where appropriate, sports shouldn’t be segregated via gender, but other things like weight." and "I agree with this, I think it's mad that we have as much gender segregation as it is. The argument tends to centre around the athletic sports where it's assumed men would otherwise dominate."

"I just can't imagine ever being offended if they had used an "individuals with a prostate" in an article. It is such an unbelievably minor thing to find offensive and claim to be being marginalised or bullied as a result. Very big snowflake energy."

David Cameron's cabinet passed through some very progressive legislation in the form of the 2010 Gender Equality Act, and before throwing the towel in Theresa May had some brilliant amendments to the GRA proposed which would have further progressed trans rights.

The Gender Equality Act. This person doesn't even know what the Equality Act is. S/he thinks it's all about trans people. Not an Act which consolidated the rights of all marginalised groups equally and seeks to balance them, and, if properly enforced, actually protects the right to single sex provision, even in some cases where someone has a GRC. That protects women's rights, too. What the identitarians call transphobia is therefore fully protected by the very Act they loudly support. And yet this person feels well informed enough to lecture upon the state of affairs in the country? Please.

They're the bigots. Yes, some people are transphobic and that's wrong. So is denying that biology is real, and has huge impacts and implications for women, especially - across absolutely all areas. If you deny the reality of sex, and its effects upon women in so many areas, then you are a male supremacist by default. For some reason, misogyny is acceptable, though. It's only women, after all. The boring female type, who clearly don't matter.

Labour have a misogyny problem so enormous, the rank and file aren't even aware of it. But the rest of us are. And they will remain unelectable until they understand that.

CLCB07 · 06/08/2020 15:57

I noticed Starmer was in Stoke yesterday and he is in North Wales today. He is certainly very hardworking and he is good at PMQs but I don't know how he will manage the Corbyn fanatics.

Collidascope · 06/08/2020 16:21

"Labour have a misogyny problem so enormous, the rank and file aren't even aware of it. But the rest of us are. And they will remain unelectable until they understand that."

Yes, the ignorance of the people on that thread is astounding.

And the insistence that they don't need to bow to 'the shifting tides of public opinion.' Ffs, they're the public too. It's as if they think they're made of some better fabric than the rest of us common plebs. And these are the people claiming to represent Labour.

I don't quite understand how they expect to get into power if they public don't like their policies or trust them, and you'd think the result in Dec would be a wake up call, but no. It's one thing to take that approach if you're a dictator who intends to take power old-style with a big army, but saying "we don't really care about public opinion, we know what's right" in a democracy where you're relying on votes is just batshit!

Collidascope · 06/08/2020 16:21

Sorry, should have bolded first paragraph.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 16:29

David Cameron's cabinet passed through some very progressive legislation in the form of the 2010 Gender Equality Act, and before throwing the towel in Theresa May had some brilliant amendments to the GRA proposed which would have further progressed trans rights.

Oh God, I completely forgot - so annoyed by the twit redesignating the Equality Act the Gender Equality Act - it was under Labour, not Conservatives! Harriet Harman, the present Mother of the House, was the primary lead in drafting it. Royal Assent was that spring, and the election was a month or so later. Nothing whatsoever to do with Cameron's government. It was Brown's... and Trevor Phillips was appointed head of a commission, prior, which was instrumental in the creation of the eventual Act.

Yes, the same evil Trevor Phillips they've suspended from the Party, for his wicked refusal to intone mantras mindlessly.

The stupidity and ignorance is matched only by the arrogance. These people have no idea what it is they're saying, or doing, and yet they call other people ignorant and in need of education. Says it all.

Tanith · 06/08/2020 16:29

"I noticed Starmer was in Stoke yesterday and he is in North Wales today. He is certainly very hardworking and he is good at PMQs but I don't know how he will manage the Corbyn fanatics."

Same way Neil Kinnock managed their predecessors: sling them out on their ears!
It took a while, and a lot of very hard work, for Kinnock to clean up the Militants. Left wingers are one thing: a broad-based party is desirable. Fanatics who demand their way, and threaten and abuse to get it, should have no place in any decent party.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 16:30

@Collidascope

"Labour have a misogyny problem so enormous, the rank and file aren't even aware of it. But the rest of us are. And they will remain unelectable until they understand that."

Yes, the ignorance of the people on that thread is astounding.

And the insistence that they don't need to bow to 'the shifting tides of public opinion.' Ffs, they're the public too. It's as if they think they're made of some better fabric than the rest of us common plebs. And these are the people claiming to represent Labour.

I don't quite understand how they expect to get into power if they public don't like their policies or trust them, and you'd think the result in Dec would be a wake up call, but no. It's one thing to take that approach if you're a dictator who intends to take power old-style with a big army, but saying "we don't really care about public opinion, we know what's right" in a democracy where you're relying on votes is just batshit!

Yep. They create their own facts, then appear genuinely outraged and astonished when they're called on it.
Packingsoapandwater · 06/08/2020 16:37

@Collidascope

www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/i4nggh/why_have_there_been_no_consequences_for_the

Thread showing beautifully why Labour aren't in power. It seems to be mostly men, of course.

Highlights include

In response to someone citing the recent YouGov poll where the public was less than thrilled about self id: "The Labour Party should be setting the standards for civil and human rights. Our support for trans rights, or any other rights for that matter, shouldn't depend on the changing tides of public opinion."

"Tbh, where appropriate, sports shouldn’t be segregated via gender, but other things like weight." and "I agree with this, I think it's mad that we have as much gender segregation as it is. The argument tends to centre around the athletic sports where it's assumed men would otherwise dominate."

"I just can't imagine ever being offended if they had used an "individuals with a prostate" in an article. It is such an unbelievably minor thing to find offensive and claim to be being marginalised or bullied as a result. Very big snowflake energy."

I've just read that thread.

Holy Mother of God, I don't think I've ever come across such a myopic vortex of political twaddle. They may as well be discussing how many angels dance on the head of a fucking pin.

You know what's laughable about it? Many biological females don't tend to realise they have a specific body part called a cervix until they are asked for a smear or they birth a child. Indeed, I've known obstetricians who talk about "the neck of the womb" to patients because they realise that a lot of people don't know the medical term.

So "individuals with a cervix" isn't inclusionary at all; it discriminates against any biological female who doesn't realise they have a cervix and that will include transmen as well. Angry

This isn't just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's throwing the goddamn bath out to boot.

QuimReaper · 06/08/2020 17:09

Can I just get this straight - all Rosie Duffield did to ignite this pile-on was like a Tweet (by Piers Morgan) pointing out that only women have cervices? I know she later Tweeted her disbelief at being called transphobic, but is that all that started this?

Collidascope · 06/08/2020 17:13

Yes, Quim. That's all she did.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 17:22

You know what's laughable about it? Many biological females don't tend to realise they have a specific body part called a cervix until they are asked for a smear or they birth a child. Indeed, I've known obstetricians who talk about "the neck of the womb" to patients because they realise that a lot of people don't know the medical term.

So "individuals with a cervix" isn't inclusionary at all; it discriminates against any biological female who doesn't realise they have a cervix and that will include transmen as well.

Yep. Think it was Jo's Trust who found half of all women don't know what a cervix is. But really, we all know that this has nothing to do with cancer, or they'd be going for men's cancer charities, and they aren't - because transwomen don't want the connection with male biology, just as they don't want the word 'woman' connected with female. This is all of a piece of Scots law redefining 'woman' to include males, while leaving 'man' well alone.

Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end, we shall make thought crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.

Orwell, 1984.

The language is the point. The colonisation of 'women' and 'female' the imposition of 'cs' instantly renders us subject to men who define as women, not in spite of but because of the fact that we accept sex is real, and immutable, and impacts us all. The upside down world we are expected to inhabit holds that women who accept objective reality - that women are oppressed because of immutable sex - are instantly dismissed as privileged on the very basis of that acknowledged reality of oppression, and must have our rights rendered subject to the demands of males, denying that objective reality applies equally to them, on the basis of that denial. It makes us cs, and we must therefore accept males who identify in to our class at will. It's utterly bizarre. But we need the language if we are to be able to delineate that truth.

This is exactly what the battle over language is about. Not kindness. Not inclusion. This isn't about trans men, because TRA's don't care about trans men unless they can be used against women asserting women's rights - look at Radcliffe, given a response to Rowling that wholly ignored trans men and trumpeted over the rights of transwomen. This is all, as ever, about male demands. There's a reason the woke bros on Twitter gaslight, police, mansplain, hector and insult feminists, instead of going after those calling all male people men, instead. I don'tbelieve for one minute that they really give a stuff about trans, or they would be putting their own men's house in order, and examining their own language, provisions, and spaces for behaviour towards trans men. (Or indeed, and heaven forfend, how they could 'expand the bandwidth of what it is to be a man' by embracing males who identify with women's gender roles.) But they don't. Because this is about gunning for women, and women's rights, and it has such traction because a very large number of men are gleefully siezing this golden opportunity, and a depressing number of keen women are aiding them excitedly: a chance to be approved of by affluent white men, while fighting bravely against the status quo, and for civil rights! (You'd imagine that fact, along with the reality that it is the most marginalised of female people whose rights are being erased against their will, might give them pause. It appears not. Any such claim is just those women, "weaponising" their own oppression.)

We need words in order to say why and how we are oppressed. They are absolutely essential. If we lose that, we can't explain what is happening to women, and why it is wrong - which is why the language issue is the one they are gunning for hardest in the first place. It is wholly intentional. The group who control language control thought.

If you can't use the words 'women' and 'female' and mean just that, feminism becomes completely meaningless.

Thingybob · 06/08/2020 20:10

That like of a Piers Morgan tweet has now led to a flood of transgender people leaving the Labour Party according to a new article in Pink News.

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 06/08/2020 20:11

Ha! Well good. Anyone so easily offended can fuck off to the greens or form their own party. Clear out of labour and might be able to repair itself.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 06/08/2020 20:17

That's all she did.

This is politics, 2020. 'Like' a tweet by someone who isn't Approved, and it leads for calls for you to be sacked, an actual campaign against you.

Unbelievable, really.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 20:43

She's retweeted the Debbie Hayton piece in the Spectator. I so, so hope she gets the support for this she needs. So many women will be quietly willing her on - they need to write to Starmer, and to her, to show they recognise that women's rights matter. Women matter. Our rights are not men's to give away, and the word 'woman' is taken.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 06/08/2020 20:55

Glad to see a tweet in support from Labour Women's Network.

I really feel for Rosie Duffield. It's an object lesson in how little one has to do in order to be thrown to the dogs, though, I suppose. Frightening.

GreenUp · 06/08/2020 21:43

@wellbehavedwomen She's retweeted the Debbie Hayton piece in the Spectator. I so, so hope she gets the support for this she needs.

I think she might be forced to capitulate Sad - looks like LGBTLabour may be getting to her.......

twitter.com/LGBTLabour/status/1291452126229671936?s=20

"After initial discussions with Rosie Duffield, we are continuing to push for a way forwards which guarantees future protections and safe environments within our party for trans people.

We will update our members further, as discussions are currently ongoing. We will continue to defend trans rights at every level in our party."

wellbehavedwomen · 06/08/2020 21:50

She probably will, and honestly, who can blame her? The pressure she'll be under right now is immense. But she said something, and that will have raised the issue amongst other women in the party who are afraid to speak out. That has value, too.

KarenKarendson · 07/08/2020 10:24

"After initial discussions with Rosie Duffield, we are continuing to push for a way forwards which guarantees future protections and safe environments within our party for trans people

They don't seem too bothered about the protections for women though do they. Only appropriating womanhood for themselves. No-one has said trans people shouldn't be safe. But being safe doesn't mean they get to appropriate the words and rights of women, in turn making them unsafe. Changing words and meaning doesn't turn men into biological women but it does damage actual women. Don't apologize Rosie, you have nothing to apologize for.

Dreeple · 07/08/2020 10:41

Ultimately they can “punish” her by removing the Labour whip.

After all, they’ve got parliamentary minority to spare!

Collidascope · 07/08/2020 10:51

She wasn't exactly apologetic 14 hours ago. Incidentally, I can't comprehend the mindset of people (like the dickhead in this screenshot) who go on Twitter and demand apologies, and tell people to "do better" and "be better" and "educate yourself." The self-righteousness is just nauseating. I can't imagine typing it out and thinking, "Yeah, this is a good look. This doesn't make me look like a tedious, sanctimonious prick at all."

Today’s witch burning - Rosie Duffield MP
Deliriumoftheendless · 07/08/2020 10:54

wellbehavedwoman-

“I don'tbelieve for one minute that they really give a stuff about trans, or they would be putting their own men's house in order, and examining their own language, provisions, and spaces for behaviour towards trans men. (Or indeed, and heaven forfend, how they could 'expand the bandwidth of what it is to be a man' by embracing males who identify with women's gender roles.) But they don't. “

This is absolutely it. If these men care so much for trans rights what are they doing to stop transphobia and violence FROM MEN? Nothing. It’s the equivalent of twats who moan about International Women’s Day but ignore International Men’s Day or complain about women only services whilst doing nothing for vulnerable males.

It must be great to be an MRA yet still get to claim feminist credentials.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 07/08/2020 12:41

MP 'likes' (factual) tweet.

The leader of the party says nothing.

This, apparently, is enough to have TRAs leave the party in droves.

Even a tiny bit of indirect sunlight seems to be enough.

teawamutu · 07/08/2020 13:06

Anyone else think the very tacit support from de Cordova and Reeves, plus silence from Starmer, might indicate a subtle change of direction?