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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is it wrong to objectify men?

126 replies

Athrawes · 29/07/2020 09:11

I suspect it is.
I made a "funny" comment to a female colleague about the attractiveness of father's at parent teacher interviews - just a throw away line for a laugh whilst waiting.
If I was a man saying that about the yummy mummies it would be very wrong. So I guess it's as wrong to do it in reverse?

OP posts:
sleepyhead · 29/07/2020 09:18

It's tricky - on the one hand, it's not that great to treat anyone as if they were just an object to be looked at and separate their physical appearance from the whole person (goes for "ugly" people as well as "beautiful" ones).

On the other hand, we're not yet in a place where the power structure between a man making sexual comments about a woman is the same as a woman making sexual comments about a man (except possibly in the workplace where the woman is senior to the man). The underlying sexual threat isn't the same.

Watching a film recently, I did actually wonder how Chris Hemsworth feels having to take his shirt off in everything he does (it's pretty gratuitous) and always seeming to have some sort of subplot, or at least a few lines, about how physically beautiful he is. But then again - I suspect at this point in his career he can say no...and the difference is that, Ghostbusters aside, his characters always have other things about them going on which wasn't the case in the past for female eye candy.

nepeta · 29/07/2020 09:25

I have seen a few men say that they like the experience of being objectified because it makes them feel sexually desirable! That is probably because they are not objectified day in and day out and they know that those doing the objectifying don't have the power to actually follow their words with deeds.

And I agree with sleepyhead in that the impact of being objectified does depend on this relative powers difference. But as a basic concept (and certainly if it actually occurred more with men) to openly objectify anyone, and especially to their face, is wrong.

crunchermuncher · 29/07/2020 13:07

I try not to do it, because I believe it would be inconsistent of me as I believe objectifying women is wrong.

However I agree with the comments above that given the power differential between the sexes that we currently have, the two are not really comparable in terms of offence or harm likely to be caused.

Siameasy · 29/07/2020 14:09

I think it can be intimidating when men objectify women but that’s because, as others have pointed out, they have “the power”. A man making lewd comments may come and grab me-he has the power and it’s normalised for him to do so. And if he wants to he can kill me, ultimately. The dynamic is so different. We know men can kill us easily.

TorySon69 · 29/07/2020 14:19

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NiceGerbil · 29/07/2020 14:23

I avoid it as it would be hypocritical of me

Although I agree that the power balance/ history/ possible threat/ are very different I don't think it's a good thing to do at work either way round.

MrsTerryPratchett · 29/07/2020 14:25

I've worked with firefighters a fair amount. And while many of them like it, a couple I worked with find it very uncomfortable. In a very similar way to women I know. I think that's a good equivalency because men generally don't deal with the constant low-level harassment from an early age as women do (11 in my case). Firefighters deal with it (albeit from the moment they train). Of course there is little of the same physical threat to it.

Best not.

TheChampagneGalop · 29/07/2020 14:27

There is no history of women treating men as possessions. But quite recently in history a woman basically belonged to her husband. I don't think many women can fully objectify men, as in thinking of them as things instead of people, in their minds. Even if they did, it wouldn't be as threatening to men as a group.

NiceGerbil · 29/07/2020 14:55

Agree that the history and background makes it not a direct equivalence at all

NiceGerbil · 29/07/2020 14:56

The objectification of women by men extends to a whole lot of really unpleasant behaviours eg Street harassment, ogling girls in school uniform etc

It's just a different ball game

Gronky · 29/07/2020 16:14

I would say 'do unto others...'. Yes, men as a whole have suffered less consequences of objectification but it seems hypocritical to use this to excuse one's own behaviours ('be the change you want to see in the world').

janetmendoza · 29/07/2020 16:24

I hate this and I've seen it done so many times to DS from the age of about 14, when I've been with him. Middle aged women generally as if its a charming thing to do. Its not charming its bloody rude to offer to help him out in the changing cubicle, or to touch his hair as you've always liked 'hair like that'

Dervel · 29/07/2020 18:54

Men aren’t objectified in that way in our society. If a man is desired in that way it increases his social capital in a way that isn’t quite the same for women. The line gets crossed in my mind when the individual internalises their own objectification. We are after all biologically programmed to find the opposite sex attractive. It the social paraphernalia that surrounds it that causes the problem.

BlueBrush · 29/07/2020 20:18

Worth saying that finding someone sexually attractive is not the same as objectifying them.

It's ok to find someone attractive, and to comment on it to someone else.

If you shouted it across the room, or made them feel uncomfortable or demeaned, or didn't take them seriously when you spoke with them...then that would be inappropriate. But my guess is you didn't?

Fffffs · 29/07/2020 23:17

It’s not the same thing at all.

A woman objectifying a man is rude, but it’s not predatory and isn’t something that’s within the power play that men have over us and their objectifying us needs to be seen as the abuse of male privilege that it is.

It’s the equivalent of it being rude for someone to complain about my skin being too pale but would be racist to comment on how dark a poc skin is. It’s an entirely different thing.

DianasLasso · 29/07/2020 23:35

Emily Maitlis did a fascinating article/interview with the Chippendale's a couple of years ago (will post link tomorrow when not on phone). One of the dancers made precisely the point about power imbalance and also the fact that it was much easier for him simply to step away from being objectified, and that he didn't see his situation as parallel to those of women in the same industry (he came across as a very thoughtful man, and much more clued up about sexual politics than your average sex possie lib fem).

Original poster
Athrawes · 30/07/2020 03:54

Food for thought. And to reassure you, no I didn't shout phwar!!!! across the room!!

OP posts:
UsedUpUsername · 30/07/2020 04:15

Why would you even objectify men? Frankly when there is a spread of ‘hot men’ I think it’s ridiculous looking (and maybe actually targeted towards gay men).

That said, it seems a lot of men are desperate to be objectified by women 🙄

NonnyMouse1337 · 30/07/2020 06:38

@BlueBrush

Worth saying that finding someone sexually attractive is not the same as objectifying them.

It's ok to find someone attractive, and to comment on it to someone else.

If you shouted it across the room, or made them feel uncomfortable or demeaned, or didn't take them seriously when you spoke with them...then that would be inappropriate. But my guess is you didn't?

This is how I view it, but I wouldn't use the word objectify. To me, it's a form of sexual harassment to deliberately make someone feel uncomfortable or put in a demeaning position by staring or making loud comments, or even touching them - is it not? And I don't think either sex should be given a free pass on sexual harassment. Yes, there is a general power imbalance between men and women, but that shouldn't be an excuse to justify sexual harassment, especially as individual situations can vary. There's no good reason why women shouldn't be expected to operate on the same levels of decency that is demanded of men.

I always got the impression that objectifying meant something else though, like even having those thoughts in your mind was a bad thing. Thinking of someone in a sexual manner, however fleeting, is meant to be reducing someone to body parts or turning them into a sexual object. I could have interpreted it wrong, but that's the distinct impression I got whenever I've previously read or heard women's thoughts on the subject.

Abhannmor · 30/07/2020 07:55

Well there was slavery of course? And class conferred power on some women over men. Today we have the Romance Holiday phenomenon. Julie Bindel seems to be the only feminist who has noticed it though.

twoHopes · 30/07/2020 08:08

I agree with everything PPs said about the power balance. There are certainly ways in which women can objectify men. For example I'm imagining a very rich woman employing a poor young man to do her gardening with his shirt off. That would be objectifying and wrong. But I would say that remarking on "handsome dads" is not necessarily objectifying them.

I also think there's a lot in the way something is phrased. "doesn't he look handsome in a suit" is not the same as "I'd love to have a go on that".

wagtailred · 30/07/2020 08:17

Did you objectify him though or just comment you found him attractive? As in, did you treat him like his purpose was to look pretty and sit there quietly whilst you spoke to the other parent. Or did you speak to him like he had a valuable role in his childs life.

MangoFeverDream · 30/07/2020 08:33

Today we have the Romance Holiday phenomenon

Who’s using who though? A lot of older women get scammed because they are delusional and believe that these young handsome men want to marry them!

TheGodmother · 30/07/2020 08:52

Of course it's wrong!!!

I had a middle aged woman make comments about my teenage son's body. She was lucky I didn't knock her out!

My son was extremely uncomfortable, but that's ok is it because in history women used to be men's possessions? So he deserves it because, well, he's a man!

So when it's ok? When he's in his 20's or married or when? When is it ok?

Can't believe some of what I'm reading here!

QuentinWinters · 30/07/2020 09:17

Worth saying that finding someone sexually attractive is not the same as objectifying them.
Yes. To me, objectification is treating the subject as less than human, as a person who you see as existing purely for your benefit.
Saying "phwoar he's gorgeous" is not objectifying

Saying "look at the body on that" is objectification. Touching or staring openly at said man without permission is objectification. Saying "If I could get him alone for 5 minutes, I'd give him a good seeing to" is objectification.

The ultimate in objectification to me was Ched Evans saying he got consent to sex by asking his friend if he could have a go (on the woman friend was having sex with). As if she was something like a bike or a games console.

This really does rile me. The only actual evidence anyone ever gives for "objectification of men" is the diet coke ad from 25 years ago. But we still have to discuss that "women do it too". Maybe, but not as many as men, and not to the same extent as men.