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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it wrong to objectify men?

126 replies

Athrawes · 29/07/2020 09:11

I suspect it is.
I made a "funny" comment to a female colleague about the attractiveness of father's at parent teacher interviews - just a throw away line for a laugh whilst waiting.
If I was a man saying that about the yummy mummies it would be very wrong. So I guess it's as wrong to do it in reverse?

OP posts:
Fffffs · 30/07/2020 09:18

Of course it’s wrong godmother, no one has said it’s right, just that it’s not the same thing.

Your son may well have felt very uncomfortable, but then he can step away and get on with his life without needing to concern his self with it again. Where as my teenage daughters would be stuck terrified as there is an actual threat posed by men, including your son, and my girls wouldn’t be free to step away from this objectification because they are physically much weaker, because many other men they will meet each day will also objectify them, because other people will tell them it’s their fault and they were asking for it and because they face a much much higher likelihood of being raped and/or murdered by a man than your son will ever face from any woman.

It’s gross and vile and wrong for that woman to objectify your son, but he still gets to walk away in the position of power, my girls never do. It’s really disturbing that on a feminism board women don’t understand this, that you don’t get that you need to teach your son about the difference so that he learns not to abuse his male privilege and power he has over my girls. Women who see male violence against women and girls as coming from a different type of male, not their precious sons or brothers or husbands, contribute to those men’s justification and excuse of their violence and objectification of women and girls. Claiming it’s the same it’s no different to shouting all lives matter in response to blm.

QuentinWinters · 30/07/2020 09:19

This article is really powerful in showing what objectification of women vs men looks like in practice

victimfocusblog.com/2018/05/08/comparing-men-women-who-gets-photoshopped-the-most/

TheGodmother · 30/07/2020 09:32

So my 15 year old son just walks away from verbal sexual abuse and doesn't have to think about it again, as he's in a position of power???

Aye right!

Fffffs · 30/07/2020 10:10

You said he was objectified, by one woman once, not abused. By the time he’s a teenager he’s more than physically capable of objectifying her back, of protecting himself from any possible (& highly unlikely from an woman) assault and assaulting her himself. Even if he finds it upsetting to be objectified he is the one with all the power and he’s unlikely to come across much objectification from woman, and massively unlikely to be assaulted by them (in fact for a boy any actual threat -which is still highly unlikely- from a woman is most likely to come from their mother or primary female care giver).

For my teenage girls there’s no way they could fight off any male, including your son, and it’s highly likely they would walk straight out to be objectified or face other assaults from lots of other men, including your son.

Even if you are talking about actual sexual abuse, while any actual insistence of molestation is of course as traumatic as any other, the reality still is that the world we then live in effects how we heal (or don’t) after. Boys are much more likely to be believed, to see their abuser prosecuted and face longer prison terms. Other than very rare circumstances (say Michael Jackson’s victims, Cory Feldman) no one ever uses the term crying rape about a man coming forward about abuse and no one says they were asking for it. They are much less likely to be revictimised, where as it’s highly likely woman are. There’s way more charities and abuse survivors support taylored to male only help, much more money goes into nhs mental health help for men than it does women. Potential future partners are much less likely to be put off by a mans experience of abuse, or take advantage of it, yet us women are seen as damaged, or as shameful or as targets for abusive men. Men are seen as brave and hailed as hero’s for speaking up, us women get eye rolled and oh here we go again-ed. There’s also the basic biological reality that for any woman pentitrated by a male we have a much higher likelihood of catching stds/is (about 9 or 10 times more likely than a man catching it from us) and then there’s the risk of pregnancy, and the risk to our lives that carries, along with trying to deal with medical help for pregnancy after rape- whether choosing to abort or not.

There are other factors that can make coming forward, and therefore healing, difficult for male survivors- they almost always climax during assault (although this can happen to women also) and that tends to come with confusion and shame and a sense they might have consented on some level and on the rare occasions that it’s a woman assaulting a boy there tends to be a shame about the idea that a boy would be greatful for the sexual interest. So there can be other aspects that are difficult for male victims to process, but for the most part for any male victim healing from assault they are massively privileged by living in a world where they are the privileged class where as any woman survivor is trapped trying to process it in a world where they still face threats from every man they come into contact with.

It’s entirely different an experience, and like everyone has said it’s wrong for women to objectify men also, it’s completely different due to the hirachy of power that men have and we don’t. Again, claiming that it’s the same thing is the equivalent of shouting all lives matter in response to blm, or being colour blind to the reality that poc are oppressed based on their skin. Women are oppressed based on our bodies and men aren’t. You can’t be delusional about that on a feminism board.

Dandarabilla · 30/07/2020 10:13

Finding someone sexy and wanting them for sex is not objectifying them as long as there is mutual agreement about it and no degradation present.

SleepingStandingUp · 30/07/2020 10:16

@sleepyhead

It's tricky - on the one hand, it's not that great to treat anyone as if they were just an object to be looked at and separate their physical appearance from the whole person (goes for "ugly" people as well as "beautiful" ones).

On the other hand, we're not yet in a place where the power structure between a man making sexual comments about a woman is the same as a woman making sexual comments about a man (except possibly in the workplace where the woman is senior to the man). The underlying sexual threat isn't the same.

Watching a film recently, I did actually wonder how Chris Hemsworth feels having to take his shirt off in everything he does (it's pretty gratuitous) and always seeming to have some sort of subplot, or at least a few lines, about how physically beautiful he is. But then again - I suspect at this point in his career he can say no...and the difference is that, Ghostbusters aside, his characters always have other things about them going on which wasn't the case in the past for female eye candy.

He was the best thing about Ghostbusters tbf.

It's like Will Mellor in 2POL&AAPOC. He always took his top off and it was clear from interviews it was because he had a nice body. If one of the women had kept striping to their bra because the male directors/whomever had liked it ..

Lamahaha · 30/07/2020 10:17

I find it totally cringeworthy when women as often happens on Facebook say "I would definitely do (good-looking movie star, footballer etc)".
Or when they post pictures of undressed men and talk about "doing" them.
Or that one with David Beckham in tight trousers, photographed from behind, and women saying, "I love David Beckham's -- watch".

Acting and speaking in exactly the same way as men speak of us, as sexual objects, does not help our case at all.
Either it's sexual objectification, or it isn't. As women we should know better.

AntsInPenzance · 30/07/2020 10:22

@Dandarabilla

Finding someone sexy and wanting them for sex is not objectifying them as long as there is mutual agreement about it and no degradation present.
Not sure about the mutual agreement part. If I pass a person walking in the street and find them sexy, I don't expect them to feel the same way!

Also I don't think finding a particular body part attractive on a person, such as bum, eyes, breasts, biceps, etc means it's objectification. You can find someone's bum sexy and still recognise that he or she is a person with feelings. Humans are capable of holding two ideas at once.

SleepingStandingUp · 30/07/2020 10:24

@TheGodmother

So my 15 year old son just walks away from verbal sexual abuse and doesn't have to think about it again, as he's in a position of power???

Aye right!

I don't think anyone is saying making sexual comments to a child is ok. Just that it's likely a one off and he's less likely to think if I react wing will I get attacked or raped. Will the next woman think the way I'm dressed makes it ok to securely harass me or raped me. Will a judge decide I asked for it by looking the way I do. So it's far easier to tell him she's a weird creepy woman but there's very few of them about and it's safe for him to tell her to go away and leave a than it would be with your 15 to daughter.
AntsInPenzance · 30/07/2020 10:29

@QuentinWinters

Worth saying that finding someone sexually attractive is not the same as objectifying them. Yes. To me, objectification is treating the subject as less than human, as a person who you see as existing purely for your benefit. Saying "phwoar he's gorgeous" is not objectifying

Saying "look at the body on that" is objectification. Touching or staring openly at said man without permission is objectification. Saying "If I could get him alone for 5 minutes, I'd give him a good seeing to" is objectification.

The ultimate in objectification to me was Ched Evans saying he got consent to sex by asking his friend if he could have a go (on the woman friend was having sex with). As if she was something like a bike or a games console.

This really does rile me. The only actual evidence anyone ever gives for "objectification of men" is the diet coke ad from 25 years ago. But we still have to discuss that "women do it too". Maybe, but not as many as men, and not to the same extent as men.

Men are definitely objectified in porn (possibly even more than women - although that's probably a controversial statement here!). Male porn actors spend most of the video without their heads - it's just a thrusting penis in shot.
QuentinWinters · 30/07/2020 10:37

Men are definitely objectified in porn (possibly even more than women - although that's probably a controversial statement here!). Male porn actors spend most of the video without their heads - it's just a thrusting penis in shot.
I think that's actually because porn is extreme objectification of women as a sex object. So extreme you dont have to imply any form of connection to the MSM having sex with her - shes there for sex, not for him. Porn portrays that it could be any penis, she doesnt care because she's a sexual appliance.
It is dehumanising for the male actors to be reduced to a penis, sure, but I'm not sure its objectification.

QuentinWinters · 30/07/2020 10:40

Either it's sexual objectification, or it isn't. As women we should know better. Hmm
What? Either men are being objectified or they aren't. If they are,men should also know better.
Unless you are implying that women can be held to a higher standard of behaviour than men because they are women. Which would be an odd point of view on a feminist board

TheBlueStocking · 30/07/2020 10:50

I know some very good looking men who have been made horribly uncomfortable by women. And I don't think it's a competition as to has been made to feel the most uncomfortable. Sexually objectifying people to their face is not cricket.

And I agree, if someone did this to my fifteen year old son, I wouldn't be happy.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2020 10:59

Gay porn of certain genres is more objectifying than het porn, for the men.

Imagery of men that is objectifying is also most easily found in stuff aimed at men.

Thinking oh he/ she is sexy is not the same.
It's the lack of seeing them as a person.
I think this is why some men get so angry when they make a comment to a woman or girl and she says something negative back. He's seeing her as a passive body for him to view. Objects aren't supposed to speak back let alone argue.
I've seen loads of threads on here as well about Street harassment where someone has said something to the man/ men eg she's only 14 that really upset her and they have been apologetic. Because when they were saying what they said they forgot she was a person with feelings etc she was a body passively there for them to comment on.

I think as in society men are given whole person status generally while women are girls are not so much, the dynamic is different. I don't think women tend to forget that men are people in quite the same way.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2020 11:09

I don't think anyone on the thread here has said it's in any way ok to harass men or boys or objectify them.

The people who objectify males and females more in the true meaning of the word are men though.

And there's no denying surely that women and girls are objectified more in society, media, on the street etc than men and boys, and that there is an acceptance that good looking women and girls are decorative, that's what 'smile love' is all about. Doesn't matter why you're not smiling to the person who says it. Something terrible could have happened. They don't think about that, just think that you could look more decorative and thats what you're for and so give you an instruction.

TheChampagneGalop · 30/07/2020 11:29

As other has said I think a lot of people confuse objectification with looking at someone in a sexual way. Objectification is when you reduce someone to a thing, something not human. The Nazis objectified the jews, saw them as not human, there are stories of them turning their prisoners literally into things such as using their skin for lampshades.
You can sexually objectify someone, but it's not the same thing as merely checking them out. It means seeing them like an useful thing they are entitled to, like a wank sock. The male stripper knows that his female audiences likely still sees him as a human being with feelings, but a female stripper often experience the opposite.

TheChampagneGalop · 30/07/2020 11:32

That doesn't mean that men and boys can't be sexually harassed by women, of course.

walksen · 30/07/2020 11:50

"Your son may well have felt very uncomfortable, but then he can step away and get on with his life without needing to concern his self with it again. Where as my teenage daughters would be stuck terrified as there is an actual threat posed by men, including your son, and my girls wouldn’t be free to step away from this objectification because they are physically much weaker"

But this is still emotional or psychologically damaging even if the Physical fear is absent. If you keep minimising this because he is physically stronger aren't you sending a message that it shouldn't is not be a problem as long as he can physically defend himself. The same argument is used about women being violent to men. Doesn't this teach young v men to be rely on their physicality to defend themselves? Is it suprising that some will lash out physically when hurt emotionally?

Surely we should condemn any comments of this nature regardless of sex/gender (although it is a very rare experience for boys/men I imagine)

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 30/07/2020 11:51

I'd say yes, although I do agree with the points made above about power imbalance. It seems a bit off to (rightly) hold men to particular standards if I have no intention of adhering to those standards myself. And I'll personally knock out the next male stranger who wolf-whistles at me while running or tells me to 'smile love!'

Plenty of women say they like it and it makes them feel sexy, while suggesting in the same breath that I'm po-faced and have a stick up my arse because I don't.

So I'm with the 'not OK' camp, albeit the OP conveys an admirable self-reflection that is noticeably absent from most males who see nothing wrong in doing the same. (Wonder if they'd do it while their wives were looking?)

Abhannmor · 30/07/2020 12:53

The power imbalance is grotesque. ' He either performs or he doesn't eat , it's that simple ' as one Canadian woman told Bindel. She certainly had no delusions !

Abhannmor · 30/07/2020 13:00

Sorry that was a reply to Mangofeverdream!

Fffffs · 30/07/2020 13:32

Are people incapable of reading, how many times do we all have to say it’s wrong. It’s just not the same thing as boys and men belong to the class that has power over women and girls, so the context is massively difference. That doesn’t make any individual incidences boys suffer right, but it does mean that it’s highly unlikely to lead to violence (where as for girls and women it often is) and that it’s unlikely to happen repeatedly (where as for us we face it daily). If women objectify a man it’s because she’s gross and out of line, yet men do it to women precisely because they have male privilege that makes them feel entitled to and because they have power over us precisely because we are women and our bodies are weaker. The same way a white person commenting on a poc skin is seen within the reality that the poc will face that daily, will face violence because of their skin, yet a poc commenting on my pale skin isn’t the same thing at all- it’s wrong to comment on people’s skin either way but they live with discrimination and violence based on it and I don’t. Why an earth does anyone on a feminism board need this spoon fed to them??

As for women should know better!?!? It’s men who are the class who hold power over us and benefit from male privilege, if there is an argument for anyone to ‘know better’ it would be those in said position of power because of their sex, who need to learn to be vigilant never to abuse that power over us.

insideandout3 · 30/07/2020 14:02

"Are people incapable of reading, how many times do we all have to say it’s wrong."

I suspect what's being said repeatedly is being ignored because the presumed sex of the people saying it many times.

Would it help if the willfully ignorant posters knew Dervel is a man who agrees, "Men aren’t objectified in that way in our society"?

Keith Mann also agrees.

Gronky · 30/07/2020 17:34

I suspect what's being said repeatedly is being ignored because the presumed sex of the people saying it many times.

I personally think it's more that saying 'it's wrong but it's much worse for other's DDs than your DS' (or words to that effect) could seem dismissive or apologist (to the perpetrator). In a way, I think it's a sort of reverse-NAMALT.

insideandout3 · 30/07/2020 18:12

Your interpretation is not supported by what has been written, much sympathy has been offered to men and boys.

Sexism results in the sexual objectification of women causing more negative systemic consequences for women than when (using OP's example), a woman speaking privately to another woman says she finds a man very attractive with a funny comment. You disagree?